Skier, sry but it's kinda funny you are posting here, regarding banning software, when you have a program that cannot be banned

This is exactly the problem with how things are right now. You have one set of standard for charts and all things which might influence hands later in a session which are not HUDS and then another one for HUDS (and seemingly, notes). These things will just be moved to HUDs and notes if that stays the same. I agree that enforcement is an issue (cue the NoteCaddy print export feature) and I'm not sure what the answer is. However, if these are deemed a problem, and a solution must be made, then a workable solution is required which is applied fairly. I agree that controlling this kind of thing is more or less futile, which is why I brought forward no in session hand histories as a compromise.

I do have believe that the effort to deal with the issues in this thread would be better directed at the issue of bots, human assisted playing devices, and collusion. These things are only going to become more and more problematic and I think diverting resources from that task risks allowing those malicious actors to pull ahead. However, I do plan on following any rules which Pokerstars makes, so if rules must be changed and resources diverted, I would like them to be sensible and ones that my opponents will have incentive to or be forced to follow as well.

Again, I don't see the problem. You have limited time and limited space. If you can read a book in the couple of seconds you have to act, great, that is not forbidden and I'm jealous of your abilities but I don't see them as cheating. Also you can't write in the HUD anyway and notes don't work in pairs. You can't make a note that combines 2 stats and tells you what to do. That should be illegal and as far as I understand it, already is. It would surely be implemented in the software already if it was not.

Do you use NoteCaddy? Are you crushing your stake level with notecaddy?

Yes, if they can't enforce the rule then don't make the rule. I don't know what your software does exactly but if they forbid you to use it, what is stopping you? From what I understand how your software works, they can't know if you are voice commanding charts on the other computer. So there is no point in forbiding you to use it because you will (probably) continue to do so anyway, yet some people (rare ones but still) will not just because there is a "rule" - and that is an unfair advantage vs them.

Charts and huds simply aren't the problem in online poker as of now (maybe some day they will be but that day has not yet come) and there are other issues that have to be dealt with. Think about forbiding stuff when the technology available and privacy laws will actually enable you to do so.

No, I'm a rec and thanks to s/w mostly live not online.

You should be able to develop statistical techniques to compare stats across players, so if you share your strategy with anyone it becomes a lot easier to police. For better or for worse, I am one of those rare ones who would follow those rules and this is why I find it all troublesome. I will be on the receiving end of that unfair advantage you describe. It's frustrating because i think many of my opponents do use shared or data mined data as well. Apart from that, yes, it could be run on a separate computer without issues.

Once again, I concur. There are bigger fish to fry.

The difference between simply writing this on a sheet of paper and having a software popping it up for your lazy brain, you sad Dr. House wannabe impersonator with your lame ass sarcasm, is that you'd have to "simply write" a few hundred of these simple rules on a few tens sheets of paper and browse through them all before choosing an action. Good luck doing that. Or, for that matter, have the HUD display them ALL to you so you can make the decision to act based on this or that stat or combination of stats.

Instead, you just want to skip the actual work and have the software filter through the hundreds of possible leaks, combine them for you into pairs or triples or n-tuplets so that it can just show you where to hit vs Villain 1, where to hit vs Villain 2 and so on. And I'd rather be labelled as an ape by a NC addict than be an NC addict that trembles at the possibility of having to use his brain more as opposed to using his CPU more.

If you can't understand that a HUD that changes structurally from one villain to the next in order to show what's the best game plan (instead of you figuring it out) is really stepping over a line, there's really no point in arguing. What's next? Super-huds with heatmaps that pop-up in order to show you how hard a 9% BTN vs UTG 3bettor with a polarized range hits a Q87 rainbow flop in order for you to decide if it's better to xf or xr your naked underpair of 2s. Yep, great live "analysis" on your part, son, now go make a vid about it so you can enlighten us all with your stellar judgment.

Yes, but by now probably more than 10 people who got that email who feel trapped into buying software have come to say they agree with a ban.

It's true that recs can buy software but doing so is a big barrier to them playing - for the same reason Andrew West wrote elsewhere why models based on subscription instead of rake don't work because if recs don't play neither does any one else.

The above is why the top level, particularly HU is probably not saveable online and will only be played live in the future. Micros and small stakes - which rake a lot - are saveable though. If my small stakes 45 man has two players in it risking 2 year prison sentences by surreptititiously running advanced HUD software then it's still playable - if 40 out of 45 are doing it legally then it's not fun, it's work, and that's a hard sell.

tl;dq

really interesting stuff and the perfect example, why a hasty ban (like many users wanted after the 'zomg skier has a bot' thread) isn't as simple or good. imo it even would be necessary to have some players in the HQ at the IOM to discuss this topic.

What i see from anti-NC here is like that "We have to not exploit everything because that is unfair against players that cant exploit much".I mean that NoteCaddy is cheap and for everyone,is that unfair?It is like you say "Do not be good, because i have not much brain or i dont care to be as good as you".

So you're saying because Stars hasn't fixed datamining problems that NoteCaddy should be restricted / banned? Datamining doesn't just help with NoteCaddy, it helps with any HUD to make it show more data. Because some people break the rules and datamine, and Stars hasn't been able to enforce that rule, shouldn't mean that NoteCaddy should be restricted since it does follow the rules.

The solution to this problem that I think you should be asking is, "How can Stars fix the datamining issue, so that the only data people can have are hands which have been played by themselves". It seems like there would be some solutions by changing the way the hand histories are written I would think.

Also by the way, I would guess NoteCaddy is still used by the majority of people who don't break the rules and datamine. It's not fair to say the notes and badges that appear are from datamined hands. Just because some people break the rules, doesn't mean the rest do.

Again, HUD doesn't change based on action and you are making stuff up. Stop.

The last paragraph you wrote is just ridicilous. No program I know of has the ability to do that and it would be against the already existing TOS because it would need to scrape screen data AND combine various stats.

Just stop. You are not bringing anything to the discussion except misinformation, lies and incivility.

I mean, this is why I struggle to take your opinions on this seriously for the most part. Software is one of the things which rids online poker of all the problems of live poker and will make it better for the next generation.

JFC... First off, your quote at the end about anti-NC not using their own brains is totally backwards. If you don't get why, w/e But really, that was the worst possible invented quote you could come up with in order to bash "anti-NC"

Secondly, you're really stepping all over your "Location" quote. There's nothing "experience-y" (not a word, but you get it) about you acting based on a badge showing up or not. Whereas it's all about experience if and how you bet in a certain situation based on 2, 10 or 100 displayed stats. So you got it backwards here too.

Is this discussion even for real? They have claimed for months that banning seating scripts is impossible /not enforceable... Having hefty ban like the one proposed is 100 time more complex. The end result will be people will still use all of the tools just not openly and it will cost a lot more money. So honest people will be in disadvantage and PokerStars will do another favor for people gaming the system.
I am amazed people really discussing it. I mean the ban will only put honest people in disadvantage. Now it is possible for everyone to buy NC and some other stuff. Soon it will be over. Shady people will offer tools that will be even more expensive than now and your options will be buying it and risking ban etc. or accepting being at disadvantage with other people doing so.

Pokerstars prove you can ban seating scripts first /do something about bot problem then you can do the proposed ban. Now you will just do scumbags a favor and will just give them more money.

That's OK - I've got used to the bizarre and arrogant hierarchy many on 2+2 have. If you crush your view is valid, if you pay the bills your opinion is worthless.

Trouble is, back in the real world - not the world born of mum's basement, it is the ones that pay the bills whose view really matters.

Meanwhile you chose to quote an entire post of mine, one that had a distressingly logical flow to it for some and your only real disagreement is that I don't crush, and don't pay for NoteCaddy, in part because at my volume/level it would only work at all if I used illegal data with it. Sadly others at my level don't draw that line so the online community loses the $$ I would donate in a different playing environment and the level I would donate at is destroyed, in turn preventing players moving up to donate to you crushers, with your software assistance.

Funny thing is, in a few years, I'll still have an income, a house, kids and I'll still play a bit of poker and the crushers will be left with nowt as the game dies. Ironic, eh?

We've seen the next generation, it is bots, well CyBots crushing PLO, HUSNGs basically destroyed by new software to help players (within th rules) and regs paying out for yet more add on software to try and stave off the inevitable for a few months.

See you in five years.

You're not the one to talk about incivility, so I'd lay off a bit on that if I were you.

And you either intentionally misread my post or you simply can't follow it logically, although it's not that complicated. I did NOT say the hud changes dynamically during a hand (again, try to read "carefully", as you said, those anti-NC apes posting their opinions).

What I did was portray a very simple development that could come up in a couple of years, by natural "evolution" of poker software. Just as a badge pops up depending on villain stats, there could be a heatmap associated with villain's 3bet stats, broken down by flop texture. So I can instantly know a villain with a 10% polarized 3bet BTN vs CO can't stand a xr on an A high flop x% of the time, y% of the time on a K high flop and so on (there really aren't that many possible flop textures groups, so they can all be put in) just by making a single click. Pay attention, I said "a villain", not "this villain", I said "an A high flop, a K high flop, a 10 high coordinated rainbow flop etc", not "this hand's A high flop, which the HUD reads dynamically". All of this would be loaded instantly before the start of a hand, nothing would change during the hand. Do you really think this cannot be done? I'm pretty sure it can (and probably will be) done, unless there's a clear signal that too much is really too much.

The simple fact that the HUD changes from one villain to the next is a Pandora's box. So it really needs to be forbidden.

Prob you cant get the point.The point is that isnt unfair,i dont care to bash someone. I never said that someone isnt able to use his brain,i just meant that maybe some recs or regs arnt able to use the NC by efficient way.Also there is a lot of experience in order to get a good badge system.NC is only show what there is inside your Data Base,not less not much,i cant see why is that unfair,isn't advise you to do something.For me its just a good add-on to your HUD.

Like I said, if someone can make a static detailed information like that without screen scraping and changing the HUD dynamically by action/texture, organize it extremely well, and be able to go through it in 5 seconds he has to decide on his action, good for them. I support their intelligence and hard work 100%.

If it is not villain specific and doesnt change with the actions/board why would you even use such complex info in a HUD? You can have a word document or a well organized book with all the info you said written down. Reference it as you please if you can go through huge amounts of data in seconds.

HUD changes from villain to villain? Wow. You are right, we should all have random static numbers that are not connected to the villain showing up.

Why do I even reply to you.

I don't play poker for an income (I've just finished a law degree at Oxford so while I will shortly be unemployed, I have decent career prospects). First and foremost, I play it as a recreational player (though I'm making enough at the moment that I can consider playing professionally for a short time while I look for a job). This means that when I'm not having fun, I stop playing. I'm here not because I fear I won't be able to make money - that doesn't really concern me - but because cutting down the software available to the bare minimum would suck all the fun out of online poker. FWIW I don't use notecaddy, a script, any automated chart software or even Snowie. All I use is a pretty complex HUD I designed myself, and a pen and paper with Equilab and occasionally CREV for off-table work. Banning notecaddy would almost certainly benefit me substantially, but I fear it would set a precedent.

Don't assume that everyone against you merely fears for their own financial situation.

Havent had time to go threw the whole topic, just got a email from notecaddy saying pokerstars is considering banning its software.

I personaly am a huge fan of statistics, HUDS, software (CREV Flopzilla) etc. I am a competitive guy who likes a challenge, i think notecaddy (and HUDS in general, CREV, flopilla) up the level of play, wich evolves the game to a new level.

Now the people who complain about this, are probably the ones who are less competitive and "lazy" to keep putting time in there game (even tho they might give a other reason wich maybe even they told there self it true), wich i think is a bad reason to ban the software.

The software is out there publicly and is free to be used by everyone.. If we would ban the sofware, what you will get is some wizkids will find ways to gain a edge in some other "illegal" way, by creating there own software or keep running it even tho its banned on external computers or something of thwat kind, wich i think is another reason why you shouldnt ban something unless you can guarentee a 100% bullit proof wall that nobody else is using anything of its kind, wich seems very hard to do.

The people who are willing to put in more work will always come out on top, if you ban certain software or not, they will find other ways to gain a edge (illegal or legal), and then we will have a new discussion going on

Cool, now try not assuming that because someone plays recreationally they are ignorant or their view invalid.

With your education you could try dealing with the post you quoted, not trying to play the man instead.

FYI I was playing poker before you were born and online roughly when you left primary school. I get that you like s/w but with respect for your perspective you might want to take a longer view. Track the direction of travel rather than proclaim that the CyBot generation is fun or the future.

hello guys, I put my IMHO here:
I think everyone is in equal conditions now. Like on the market you could buy things cheaper but you should make an effort and spend time to find it or you could buy it instantly paying extra price for it. Some people chose 1st variant others second. When we are saying that everyone should play under one condition it is like everyone should sell with the same price one the market. And in my opinion it is nonsense! These software is open for everyone and everyone could use it, what a problem here?