I don't use badges, because i think they are worthless. I'd much rather have to interpret stats than having a pingu head badge poping up on my HUD telling me that i should do this or that without even knowing why i should do these things.

i'm ok if you ban everything but in this condition, you must implement pokerstars tracking tool inside pokerstar software for us to watch our earnings. including most of stats we need to see, like our own positional stats.

Nice post Skier.

I don't agree with some of your proposed solutions, but it is good to see actual sensible on-topic posts in here.

Well said and I agree with this opinion also.

Wow....brings back memories of those Bonus Whoring days :P

Oops, I missed this post and this is also one of my concerns as well.

Thanks. Feel free to chime in when you get the chance. I'm sure you've thought of some things which I have not.

This thread is getting ridicilous. Even skier whos intelligence I respect and agree with a lot of his points made some less than genius suggestions.

1. HEM is not a problem. NC is not a problem. Charts are not a problem. Bots are the only problem worth mentioning at the moment and worth discussing and dealing with. Deal with bots. Then deal with scripts. Then.. lower rake because everything else is perfect. Are we really talking about pokerstove and how it should be banned? Someone is taking some hard meds. Let's also ban windows calculator. It's way too powerful. Cellphones too. Also, all people contact. What if someone comments on the hand you are playing? Cheating, right? Please stop with making up rules that you can not enforce and deal with real problems you can actually fix.

The only addition in software regulation that could and probably should be made I already suggested in my first post.

2. HUDs are part of internet poker and always will be, at least if a site that offers poker games likes money. If a site does not want people multitabling and paying a ton of rake, and wants to destroy poker players profits and their own profits, by all means, ban HUDs. People have done stupid illogical **** as long as they exist.

Poker is a skill game. Both live and online. Beyond knowledge of GTO play you need to adjust to your opponent and get reads on how they play and how they act to maximize EV. Live you do it by paying attention to the one table you are playing at, watching betting patterns and looking how people act and their body language. Online you do it only by looking at their betting patterns and HUD stats. Remove HUD stats and we either have an environment where multitabling is gone and people will play a lot less tables (and destroy fish way faster btw) which is not in the spirit of online poker (you can play 40 hands per hour live or at a small poker site which cant figure out why they are not as big as stars) or the game will turn into a GTO fest where reading people (which is basically the essence of poker) is completely irrelevant. The site does not want the first option (because they like money) and no one wants the second option (unless they are a bot programmer - no huds would be bot heaven, both for playing and for going undetected forever). Anonymous tables would be an example of everything that poker isn't and shouldn't be.

3. Charts - I don't play tournaments at all but I think whoever wants to ban charts is simply not capable of logical reasoning. I am not even going to give arguments why "allow charts but only if they can fit on a sheet of A4 paper" and similar propositions are stupid because they are so disconnected from reason there is no point in talking about it. Are you going to send agents in black to people's houses to check the papers in their computer room? Or do you believe people are inherently good and honest and will actually honor that rule? And trust other people to do it as well?

4. What is the dream of HUD haters for online poker? All tables zoom with no HUD allowed? That is just disgusting. Stop messing with a good thing we have. If you want a luck game you have the casino. If you want to play against GTO bots, (and lose again) go play vs snowie. You are not losing at poker because other people have HUDs. You are losing at poker because other people are either smarter than you and/or spend more time learning the game. And yeah, HUD is and always will be part of that. Nothing is stoping you to make use of it.

5. More rules that can't be enforced (unless we are in a science fiction movie) is not smart and is unfair to the players who will follow them because those who will not - can never be caught. Until you have the mechanism in place that will catch 99.99% of rule breakers, just don't make up the rule because it's unfair to people who are honest and are being exploited for it.

No, that is not correct. This thread is filled with posts that are either uninformed or being purposefully misleading. Thank you for asking.

A NC generated HUD is static like other HUDs, once the hand starts it DOESN'T read your hand, board texture or opponent actions and offer advice. The only thing that can popup is, well, your popups when you hover over a stat. Popups are also static and do not change once the hand starts.

NC does 3 things:

NC allows you to design stats which are as specific as you want, you can add conditions for bet size, pot size, effective stack size, board texture, number of players (either in the hand and/or dealt), and define opponent types.

NC allows you to make graphical representations of opponent's past play.

NC allows you to create badges based on stats or a combination of stats.

All of the above fully complies with Stars rules and as far as I can tell complies with the proposed rules in the OP.

_________

This is a difficult debate as most of those who don't like NC really don't understand how it works and assume it has features which it doesn't.

Hopefully Stars will clarify their OP and tell us exactly what adjustments they think needs to be made to NC.

I'm fine with Stars proposed rules as I understand them and I have no issue if Stars wants to tighten up the rules. I only request clearly defined and enforceable rules.

I think everyone needs to realize that with these proposed changes like 95% of the HU hypers players are going to have to adjust and remove some of the things they use in game.

I also think it's going to be incredibly hard to enforce and anyone who's playing "fair" is getting freerolled.

I get the idea with "a single sheet of paper" but that still isn't specific:

-2 sided?
-how big can the font be?
-colors?
-can it be a virtual piece of paper on word? can I zoom? can I ctrl +F and search it?
-if it fits on one sheet can i put it in excel and format it differently?

^This is stupid. Banning "stack sized based starting hand charts" doesn't work.

How are you going to enforce this if someone is running their system on a side computer or has a bunch of charts up against the wall? Is PS going to determine how good someone's memory is and whether they had 1 sheet of paper worth or 3? Is a stopwatch (used as an RNG) allowed? Would you make someone record themselves playing with a video camera (is that even legit through TOS?)

Props to skier btw for how he's handled all this, he made a great post up there too^.

Im loving the route PS is taking with their email to Skier. "advanced reference material that provide too much guidance" Hence NoteCaddy. I guess thats the line drawn for now. Huds are ok and you interpret everything yourself. I can live with this. Seems like they are only allowing limited charts also so kudos to PS. Great day indeed. Now the problem of enforcement.



The pro sports analogy that gets brought up again and again is ridiculous. These are pros playing proffesional sports. If you want to bring this up, we would have to separate players wont we? If we had diff leagues by poker skills, you all would be up in arms. Recs do not want to play 'you pros' but they have no choice at the moment.

In the end; yes enforcement is difficult but at least its a start. yes those who follow the rules are missing out but at least it will lesson the robotic play and cause pros to multi table less tables. In the end. the rules are there and even though enforcement is difficult, you risk being banned if you are found out one day when PS figures out a way. The final result is still better than current which is less tables containing less mass software using robotic players

I'm not agree with notecaddy!! I hope ps will reconsider this decision. Spin&go casinò and now ban notecaddy.. Once upon a time there was a skill game. I think that everyone can have it exacly like hm the skill is to set them in a right way to beat the average player. For other software or problems i have not an opinion.
I only hope that ps will not ban notecaddy

The use of a tool alone does not guarantee any edge or advantage. If one lacks the theoritical background and reading skills, he is dead meat no matter how many tools he uses.

The correct use and interpretation of stats is a skill mastered with time, but is useless w/o the ability to analyze board structures and identify spots to make a move and exploit ur opponents. No NC badge and no color coding on ur HUD will turn u into a pro overnight

Sent from my GT-I8190 using 2+2 Forums

If all sw's were banned then mass tabling regs would still be able to record their sessions and analyze them later on but hey, this is 2015, not the middle ages


Sent from my GT-I8190 using 2+2 Forums

NoteCaddy is just to much of a useful tool which simplifies and streamlines everything for you. All those not wanting to lose it knows how much effort it saves from reading that info and interpreting it in the hud. Most of the info given imo in notecaddy is impossible to get on your own because its too specific which you dont have enough time to do when multi tabling.

Ok, let's imagine it is possible to ban notecaddy notes for everyone and ban using it in play and decide where is the line which stat should be ok and which shouldn't (fantasy world). What is stopping you to write notecaddy notes in the NOTES, be it in HEM or in Pokerstars software? Is the next step removal of notes because it is not human to be able to remember every single note you have ever written?

It would be nice if people actually thought things through before making suggestions.

Also, people should realize that HUD and NC are tools that actually level the playing field instead of giving unfair advantage. If I am playing 12 tables and you are playing 1, you can obviously exploit me far better than I could every exploit you, even if I had a program more powerful than Notecaddy. But NC gives me some information so I don't have to play blind because I have no time to see every hand you play, and I also have less time to take my actions.

Banning HUDs and NC wouldn't do anything except cripple peoples ability to multitable. And while a ton of people would quit online poker (because playing a lot of hands per hour is what online poker is all about), those that would stay, would make YOU quit online poker because they would crush you 10 times harder concentrating only on you.

This whole anti HUD and anti NC movement comes down to human pettiness, jealousy and lack of reason. Let's say you are a winning 2 tabling reg and make 20$ per hour and the multitabling 12-16 tables winning reg is making 40$ per hour playing the same limit. Multitabling reg is making less money per table and is taking way less money from your table than you are, has a lower winrate and is not destroying fish as fast you are. He is not hurting you, he is actually bringing the site more money by paying more rake, increasing traffic and doesn't bust fish as quickly as you. And still makes more money. That is the point where the old, slow and/or lazy lose their minds.

This whole thing reminds me of an experiment where people were given 10$ and the other person was given 100$ and the person who was given 10 (given the power) decided to refuse his 10 just so the other person doesn't get the 100. If you read the posts carefully, anti HUD crowd is simply putting their emotions on paper instead of giving reasonable, logical arguments.

notecaddy needs to go. As does skiers program.All the extra software needs to go.
All these brand new 2p2 accounts itt supporting all the cheating software. Make it a level playing field for all please, pokerstars.

Play 1 table then... problem solved. I use a hud btw but would gladly see them banned on all networks.

So 1 tabling is an unfair advantage against multitablers?

How can people be so self serving and deluded.

How is that a problem solved? If I wanted to play 1 table, I would play live. If I wanted to play 1 table online, I can, you can. Playing 40 hands per hour is not the point of online poker... meh.. no.. I will not communicate with you, it is pointless and it pisses me off. You are not qualified to be a part of this discussion anyway, I'm sorry but I think even you realize that. I hope I am being trolled though.

I sometimes feel like I am living in a Planet of the apes movie. Only apes are not as evolved as in the movie. Just enough to use the internet.

1-tabling is an advantage against overloaded multitablers, sure. Notecaddy is an advantage against a multitabler reg who doesn't use it, sure. Under current rules, neither are an unfair advantage.

No, 1 tabling is not an unfair advantage against multitablers (even if using Poketracker of Notecaddy). Don't put words in peoples mouths when you are not even capable of understanding their message. It's rude and is not helpful to the discussion.

Another argument filled reply BTW. HUD haters also remind me of vaccine haters.

I think everyone can use the tools that are allowed by PokerStars. And all these tools are compliant with the rules of the room .

Many players can have a impressive volume of tournaments , using these tool.

What will happen with this change of rules? Users will decrease its volume by almost 70 % or will play in another room.

Simple like that.

Don't be mad that notecaddy is going the way of the dodo bird on stars, and it looks like a lot of the other sw is gonna be extinct soon too.
can you not multi table w/o notecaddy? I play 8-10 tbles with a hud(but I barely use it) why do you need sw doing the thinking for you? I sure don't.
lol @ the 1st post new account guy's with broken english coming here to defend notecaddy.

Great!

heathen1
newbie

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 26

Troll be gone.

Its not cheating software if it is allowed. You don't have the right to call it that. Calling someone a cheat publicly when they actually follow the rules is punishable by law in modern civilized society. So don't make a habit of it.

And I just realised you are the same guy from the other post. Well done.