I think we need to discuss what is meant by 'dynamic' seeing as many people seem to be using it. Whilst some of the NC packages I've seen, and indeed the one I use, throw around the term dynamic it doesn't refer to any of the information on the hud or popups changing during the hand based on flop texture etc.

Pretty ridiculous and is reflective of the contempt with which recreational players are treated by regs. Trying to manipulate things so their voice is loudest as if no one else matters. From someone who is usually a chromestar, and regularly uses a HUD, take your head out your posterior and learn some humility.

I assume you have no problem with BRONZELEVEL or CHROME when you are taking their money so treat them with a bit of respect.

As if anyone who doesn't spend their whole life on the site isn't a REAL player. If the whole site was just regs you would leave pretty pronto. What an idiot.

NoteCaddy seemingly feeling the pressure already on this one:

So now it's partly? How big is this "partly"? Factors like for example legislation hurdles coming up in a lot of countries and the end of the big poker-boom/hype must be negligible compared to the impact of software, right?

It would seem that everything that actually helps you make better decisions will be banned.
Thus reducing online poker to bingo.

Real life poker is about gathering information. Online is the same, but different kind of information.
You only have players stats and betting patterns to base you decisions on.

That is why so many players use software to recognize player type and possible leaks in their betting patterns.
Because without it you are playing in the dark. Thus back to bingo.

Prohibiting software like holdem manager and notecaddy will only result in private developed versions. PS can only find something if they now what to look for. So they will not be able to find private versions of HM.
And the situation will now be that only a few who have the resources to buy or even develop their own version will have it. Gaining a massive advantage over everybody else.

The only sane approach to online poker is that each player must understand that every move he makes will be monitored and analyzed by everyone else. Thus it will be up to each player to develop a play that cannot be exploited.
That is a levelled playing field.

They're obviously not prohibiting HM. And if without a HUD you think it is bingo then you probably need to improve. Not saying I don't think we should have those tools, but thats not the reason.

Yes.
And what is fair ?
Make PokerStars.KK.Soc #Genocide
Can we also ban/remove OTB/Katya/Forhayley etc.. so not so good regs like me can get a shot at HS ?

Anyway, the main concern for PokerStars should be to take measures to forbid the botting in the Hypers/PLO/NLHE. Which is/will be a long process and the longevity of the poker depends on that.

Ben says it very well: (12:40 - 14:20)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1eJqjinX6A

I very much agree with the NC guys.
And FWIW, the main focus of using NC is to gain advantage over the regulars.
And guess who is complaining of NC/HUDs, or any tool which requires a lot of personal resources (time&energy) ?

Supporters of Notecaddy need to actually start engaging honestly in this thread.

1) Explain which feature of Notecaddy breaches the proposed ToS in the OP.

2) Explain why this functionality should be allowed.


If the answer to 1) is "All features are compliant" - then please make it clear that you have no problem with the new ToS.




Steve : relating to the OP - a starting hands "sheet" listing actions for all 16732 Omaha hands would go beyond a basic level even though it's doesn't include stack depth. You should take out the bit about stack depth and replace it with the idea that it should be a single sheet - define by the amount of info allowed on it.

+1000

If you have a second computer on the same homegroup and you save your hand histories to a shared file, you can run PokerStars on one computer and the HUD on the other.
Obviously, a casual player won't go to the trouble, but a pro will.
That's why I think these rule changes will hurt those they are trying to help.

Thanks for addressing this poster. Such an obnoxious and self centered post to read. That guy's attitude exemplifies a lot of what is wrong with online poker.

Anecdotal is what I have - alongside the correlation - but I suspect Stars market research and (ex)player feedback has a bit more.

I also have a workable hypothesis, based only in part upon that anecdotal evidence.... The boring nitty, zzzz, games. What those I play with live say regarding online. The whole years long rec friendly site debate. I suspect Stars has a better idea about why it is hard to recruit new players and why they quit so quickly and I suspect concerns about cheating, bots and software comes up a fair bit.

If you want to make the anecdotal more solid the only real option is that market research but of a regular group of about 25 people who had a monthly online tournament (linked to an investment site*) that averaged 15-20 entrants for three years, I'm the only one who still plays online at all. We tried to get it going again but by the end most of the field was saying that our game was the only online poker they were playing and when we tried to reboot the game the handful still playing at all (live) saw no reason to deposit or reopen an online account.

They stopped because it stopped being fun and it stopped feeling fair. Software was a big part of that.

I'm one of those recs (whose VIP status means Stars should ignore according to some, even though recs pay the bills). I used to play most days, now it is a couple of times a week.

I've also spent some time lobbying the UKGC for better poker regulation.

* Think about that anecdote again. 25 or so people who knew each other through discussing investment topics- changes in the way poker was played stopped the lot depositing and most of that change was s/w related.

I can see that PokerStars starts looking at a right direction. I think PS realized that the main reason why online poker traffic is declining is because it's not a fan anymore for a recreational players. But if you think a while... why it would be. Recreational players want to play for fun. They don't want to study the game because many of them study hard enough at University. They don't want to work hard on improving a game as they do enough hard work at their own work. And what is the most important, they don't want to constantly loose money against of regulars who are armed and experienced in using software which gives them big advantage.

Loosing money in poker is never a fun. I think most recreational players realize that if they want to compete on regular basis they have to buy and learn how to use a tracking software, a hud and so on. But online poker should be a fun for them. They should just open account, deposit money and play. It's not a fan anymore if they have to pay extra money and spend extra time how to use HEM or PT. It's not a fan if they are being hunted by bamhunter. It's not a fan if they have to learn for to use and interpret every single statistic on a HUD. But even if they do learn, majority of recs would have no chance against of pros for whom poker in the only job.

If I was to make a decision I would ban all 3rd Party software. At least for a few reasons. I believe that banning 3rd Party software would be a biggest news in online poker for a long time, bringing a lot of attention and obviously new players to PS. PS would loose some regulars as well, but in my opinion getting rid of nitty grinders and bumhunters would be only positive for PS.
PS recently has sighed Neymar and Ronaldo. I'm sure it brought some new players to PS. So the question is what you are going to do with them. Do PS want to let them to be eaten by regs with advanced software?
If you ban all 3rd Part software, non of the software provider will get a reason to think that PS was unjustice with them, as you haven't banned just their. You have banned all.

I think PS could provide own tracking software with some basic HUD, so nobody has to spend extra money. I think Carbon provide a basic HUD for free. But to be faie, I dont think PS will have enough courage to ban them all, especially the HUDs. But if they don't rcs will be leaving to the site like Unibet, so PS will have to do eventually. But that might be a bit too late.

I wish PokerStars to make a right decision, even if it has to be dramatic and painful for some people.

So you have no problem if I use notecaddy/skiercaddy/preflopcaddy to accurately detail the percentages which I have played preflop hands historically based on my Pokerstars playing history? A precomputed solution, a notecaddy popup, a hud based panel, or just a bunch of charts can very much be the same thing with a bit of effort. Do you think that something like colour coding your HUD numbers to help your interpretation of them is ok? What about the NC badges which say you can bet profitably? What if I notice a particular opponent has a particular leak based on my history with him and I compute a couple of ranges which I think would be most profitable against said opponent. Can I paste this into my notes? Can I have a program do it? I still have to "identify the relevant information, gauge it's reliability and decide themselves how they might use it to create/alter a strategy". Using a set of precomputed charts still requires "identify the relevant information" and "decide themselves how they might use it to create/alter a strategy". Sometimes the precomputed chart is the right answer, but sometimes it is not and either your precomputed charts are comprehensive enough that you still have to identify the right chart/spot/row etc or they are not comprehensive enough and you have to interpret and analyse the differences in game state and your chart. Is that flow of logic really that different to "his fold to cbet is 90 so i will bet"?

Re number 1, I've just looked at them and I don't really know. I don't think any do. Which ones do you think breach the TOS?

I think this is a REALLY bad idea. I dont necessarily disagree with it but this just begs for honest people to get screwed over even more by people who are not following the rules.

If you make these rules you better make damn sure they can be enforced. And yes the penalties for getting caught have to be much more severe.

+1 to these changes.

I'm pretty much neutral on a fixed HUD like FPDB which only reads the hand histories (like you also partly for enforcement reasons). They are not talking about banning that - just the kind that screenscrapes and changes the info it displays responding to events mid hand.

Also lol @ the Notecaddy guy trying to get his users to come here. It's already been made clear that this thread is not a vote, it depends on arguments presented.

First he tried saying his program didn't breach the proposed ToS. Now he's basically saying "I can't think of why my program should be allowed, maybe my users do?" - so he's at least admitting to his users that the program won't be compliant.

Please someone explain what features it has that breach the proposed ToS but should be allowed so we can discuss this properly! Does it change info based on what happens mid-hand?

Totally agreed

I think that historically Stars had OK'd static content and then my tool made people realise that static is a dangerous distinction because you can precompute many things and pair them with an efficient lookup system. My tool retrieved information which did not change from session start to session end (let's define that as from the time you open the Pokerstars client to the time you close it). i.e. if you retrieved the chart for x, that chart would like EXACTLY the same every time you retrieved x no matter who you were playing, what the action was, etc, etc. I do you voice control, but it is only a more efficient version of having a bunch of badges which display a popup when clicked on. The obvious problem here is that you take something like ICMizer and precompute some feasible subset of the solution space, store them as static charts, and then call them up as needed during play you essentially have the functionality of ICMizer which you can use during play.

I think this decision will mostly affect zoom games. Those are the games were most action is and from my point of view cannot be played profitable on a long term without hud. This kind of game without hud will disappear or transform into a very nitty action less game.

Regarding tournaments or normal cash games, I don't think they will be much affected as you can profile the players after a few hands by yourself.

As a conclusion I am totally against these rules as I play mostly zoom games and in case these rules will be applied I will try to find alternative rooms where to play...

Complete bullsh*t.
I know a forum member here who constantly won at 8bb/100 at MSNL zoom games without a HUD.

youre going to quit stars bcause you cant use pokerstove or notecaddy in game. jfc suck more

wish people would stop thinking so selfishly

I've already answered that I don't see what it has that breaches the proposed TOS and you failed to answer when I asked what you think breaches them.

And no, it doesn't change info based on what happens mid hand.

I've gotta admit that it's been so long since I played SnG's that I'm totally out of the loop with developments there so I don't really feel qualified to discuss the implications of the tool you've created.