Im all for these rakeback pros getting 70 percent rakeback as long as everyone else gets the same.

If not then good on pokerstars. Everyone should pay the same rake regardless of how much free time they have.

I pretty much agree with this.

Essentially, the SNE is crying over having to pay the same rake that everyone else has already being paying for years. Oh diddums, go cry to your mum about it, but I don't give a **** that you're finally on a level playing field with everyone else. Frankly, it's about time.

not sure if it's amazing or actually to be expected.. the amount of people who don't see the big picture considering they are poker players, supposed to be smart, thinking long-term and all.. guess amaya's PR did its job well

It's teh zoo, stuff like that is expected. Dont wanna know how angry this kid gets while online shopping and discovering that you pay 30% less if you buy 100 units of teh same item - everybody should pay teh same no?!

I'm seeing the big picture this way... according to Amaya's investors report, its 2015 gross poker revenue was $1.1 bln, out of which 22% (~$230M; 27% for specifically PS) was spent on VIP rewards and 7% more on bonuses (the figures are combined for PS and FTP).

The total 2015 profit of professional players was likely 9-figure ($100M+), I think even in the mid 9 figures (there were 20K+ of them, incl. lower VIP statuses, and I think they earned at least $500 a month on average).

The total amount of VIP reward reduction is in the mid 8 figures, considering that there were only ~200 SNEs in 2015 (there would be ~300 if not for the November announcement) and ~5K (or <10K anyway) SNs.

So while Amaya is taking a sizeable (in absolute terms) amount of money out of the economy (reinvesting part of it into new player acquisition), it's small in comparison with the overall size of the economy.

Hence there's no need to worry about 'the death of online poker' exactly in 2016. We don't know what will happen in 2017, but it's good to know that we have at least a year left (most probably several years because Amaya's approach to PR is milder than those of 888 and Party that straight out ban players for being big consistent winners).

In other words, we have an entire year to think of how to adapt to the new conditions or what to do for a living instead of playing poker.

^Just to highlight, when I talk about the potential death of online poker, I'm referring to Amaya's shift to low/no-edge games, combined with the bigger slice of the pie that they're taking. Their goal is an environment which consists of millions of losing recreational players and virtually no long-term winners; very similar to what exists on their casino/lottery/sports betting platforms.

Not really an accurate comparison. Buying items in bulk and receiving a discount requires very little time commitment from the customer.

Spin & Gos aren't a low edge game. I don't dare move up to $30-60 not because I lack money, not because of rake holding me back, but because I get beat up by strong regs. There's a lot of theory even in 25 bb play that I can't internalise. Yet, I somehow beat up recs myself (which I didn't do before Twister appeared on iPoker), so imagine how much two sharks can earn on average if sat with a rec.

Actually, the reason why most of my play in this format is not at Stars is that blinds grow too slow and there are no antes and thus regs' edges over me are too big. I prefer it when blinds grow fast and I can use push/fold Nash equilibria as an antidote* vs regs, whereas recs keep making mistakes that are very costly in high blinds. (* A strategy that is not optimal if deeper than 7.5 bb, but prevents bleeding chips at a high rate.)

The fact that recs sometimes win and withdraw 10K Bis is often cited as an argument for Spins being a game of luck. But under the new payout structure, the chance of getting a 12000x multiplier is 3 in 1M. At the $15s, I guess ~60% of all seats are occupied by recs, but they're less likely to win the 9K BIs (the surplus over the 2nd-3rd place), so only ~50% of biggest jackpots are won by recs, the amount going 'undeservedly' to recs' accounts is 1000 * 0.6 + 9000 * 0.5 = 5100 BIs on average per 12000x tourney, so under my assumptions, only 0.51% of each buy-in (=5100 * (3/1M) / 3 <entrants>) goes towards lucky recreational JP winners' pockets.

You can regard that as additional rake. I don't mind paying 5.5% rake instead of 5% when it results in my opposition being so much softer that my ROI gain (as opposed to a non-jackpot 3-player hyper) is much more than that 0.5%.

Everybody does pay the same rake.

Re: SNE promises, was this album posted here? https://twitter.com/achen88/status/683005791100628992

Can you link me to that plz?

Why would you guys decrease the starting stack of these vip freerolls? We asked PokerStars Luke to increase the starting stack of those vip freerolls last year and he did that and now its 1500 with 10 min late reg once again?

To whom could give a flying flip about Poker Stars and their integrity !
Now that I have deflated my blood pressure from the upper elevations of the above heavens over the last 3 days, I am going to share what was the WORST ever experience in the Pokers Stars PCAs history. I am a rec player who has always enjoyed the great times spent at the tables with ALL of the best players to the avg Joe's in the world, especially the times when I have left the snow and cold in Indiana, made the trip to the Bahamas in January for the Poker Stars sponsored PCA. This year being no different , I set my sights on tournaments that are in my poker bankroll , including satellites for the main event. Arriving late Wednesday I decided to play a $300 turbo to start the trip off, all went well and made it deep into the tournament. When we got to 18 players, as is, in all tourney play, it was announced that we were going to hand for hand, approximately 45min. later , being short, it was with great pleasure to hear the director announce "Congratulations everyone,you have made the money, dealers continue dealing , no more hand for hand "..After a few hands of play I found myself in a standard spot (since we were all now getting paid) to push AJ from the button, get called and lose. No big deal , onto the payout table to collect my ticket for 17th place.
I put the ticket in my pocket to cash later and go to play one of the "flipout tournaments', when I get approached by a nice young lady who was assisting the tournament I just cashed in and was asked "if I had cashed my ticket yet". I let her know I would cash it later as I was playing a flip out. She proceeds to tell me that I cannot just hold onto the ticket and was supposed to go directly the the payout stand to turn it in. Having done this a few times, now befuddled, I told her I would go over and take care of it now , she smiled and said "I will go with you to show you where it is". I set up a PS Live account to assist not having to carry cash around before I left the states and had the bank window just deposit the $500 into my account. No problems here..................and then
About 30 minutes after I was paid, the nice young assistant returned to the table where I was playing the "flip out"and asked if I could come with her for a talk with the assistant floor director. I follow her over to hear the director inform me that they had made a mistake and I was actually the bubble, NOT the 17th place finish................... I looked directly at him and said...."I'm sorry to hear that, but what do you want me to do ?" he then proceeds to tell me " The right thing would be to just give the money back", (blood pressure going way up again) ....I look at him and say #1 I cannot even believe you have the gall call me over and bring this up , let alone ask for me to give money back, #2 I am in no way going to give the money back for what is clearly a mistake by your floor man, my play was for SURE changed after the announcement we were in the money. #3 I need to get back to a tournament I am in and that is the end of this.
He replies with his best effort to guilt me into paying for their mistake by saying " So you think that's fair and right huh ? " me. ' Again , I cannot believe you are even talking to me about this".................I left, end of story.
NOT yet , hold on there TONTO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thursday, I return to the scene of my crime, feeling good 1-2 tournaments for a little cash and good start. I go to sign up for the first mega satty , give my favorite, friendly cashier my players card and hear "Sorry Chris, there is a problem with your account and you will need to see the tournament director Mike"....., I say "Whats the problem", they "you will need to see Mike as your account is suspended and locked up".....(blood pressure going way, way up again )
I storm out of bank room to find Mike in the tournament area, quickly locate him , approach him:

me "Mike ?"

Mike: "Yup, what can I help you with"

me: " I'm Chris Underwood, was told to see about a problem with my account"

Mike: " Oh, there's no problem, I just need to inform you that we are taking the $500 back that you wrongfully collected, thats it "

me: (blood pressure at app.597over300) "You have got to be kidding, is this a joke?"

Mike: "No joke, we will take it back or you wont play anymore due to your account being suspended" with a nice eat **** and leave look for me ta boot

me: (blood pressure now approaching lift off) " Mike , I am calling you out for what you are, you sir are a THIEF, CHEAT, awful piece of work, who is in charge, as well as the worst tournament director in the history of such a position"

Mike: (now with a bigger look of just eat **** and whata you going to do look says) " Its your choice, pay it back or don't play anymore ?"

me: (thinking as quickly as possible to myself, do I really want to get kicked off the Bahamas for life, with customs holding me in a straw jail cell beating me with conch shells daily, or cave into the thief? ) " Mike , again, you sir or a THIEF, you take your 500 and get my account back open so I can play"

Mike: (now grinning that you eat **** and die) " Follow me back to the bank room"

We get back to the bank room where we need to be to open my account back up, are about in the center of a partially filled room when Mike yells over to one of the 30-40 people behind the counters, loud enough for all in the room to hear...

" Go ahead and reopen up Chris Underwood's suspended account and take our $500 back out of his account"

BLOOD PRESSURE JUST WENT TO MARS AND BACK !!!!!

me: (in a heat of the moment loud enough tone for all in the room to hear ) "Mike , thanks again and just so you remember, I say you are a Thief and crook for stealing my money , have a good day thief "

Mike: now, not just grinning, but smiling that eat **** , die and kiss my ass look says " Anything else ????????? ...........................................have a good day"

Actually there was plenty more on my mind , but that jail cell and being stoned to death by conch shells woke me again

Sorry for the long rant over what I feel, certainly was wrong , but, I would not have cared any less if they would have stole just $1.00 , it is still the same principle I am calling Poker Stars and Mike out on this . Poker already has a tough time building a reputation for players to be looked upon as decent people without the likes of world class promoters like Poker Stars allowing this type of behavior from within. It has surely soured my perspective of what Poker Stars and many other promoters of the game are really doing to all players , NOT just a rec player like myself. At this point I am now pondering the idea of getting a plane out here due to my "MEGA SUPER TILT MENTALITY" that I cannot seem to lose.......I do not care who you are, if you believe in right and wrong, this is indeed very unsettling , there is nothing I can do, but stand my ground on that very principle.


Christopher B Underwood

They made a mistake, for sure. But that does not mean that they can't take the money back.
Its basically the same as giving back too much change. Knowingly keeping the change is theft in a lot of countries. Saying that, i understand your frustration and i think they should have at least gave you some compensation, so this is handled in a pretty unfriendly way.

They made a huge mistake and they should let you keep the money. If they want to take measures against anyone it's the floorpeople/tournament director for screwing this up.

Well, of course they don't list winningness as the reason; they just provide no (or artificial) explanation for the ban at times (but then they mostly allow to withdraw the bankroll).

Bans from 888

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...nk-so-1566377/ (if Amaya had the same 'policy', anyone who dared to get self-excluded from Spins would be out of Stars and FTP now)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28.../#post48104575
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...tions-1446584/ (temp-ban for mild chat abuse)

Mass ban of US emigrants from 888

http://pokerfuse.com/news/poker-room...ed-us-players/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...oning-1457421/ (Mexico and C. Rica)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...twork-1442716/ (Canada)

Bonus links: 888's ignorance of victims of hacks and frauds

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-care-1501222/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28.../#post46081035
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...count-1557121/
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...ammed-1553619/
_____________________________________________

Party said Partycaption (hotkey script) is allowed, then banned its users en masse 'for using artificial intelligence'
Incl. a well-known coach
Mass ban of Russian regs from Party

The guy played on the "fake bubble" for 45 minutes. Had he known this, he and the whole field would have played different. This is on the staff/TD and he shouldn't have to pay a penny back. Holding a player hostage for their mistakes is below what I thought even Pstars would succumb to.

It's not their money to take back. The guy won it legitimately and was paid. End of story.

I would approach some pokernews site with that story, also make aware adam schwartz of 2+2 podcast.
Thats even worse than wat happend to ansky but that being said it doesnt surprise me too much these days.

Its amazing how they are completely unwilling to pay for their mistakes...

Sne theft, ansky theft, this story. It goes on and on and on...

Also this story deserves its own nvg thread and shouldnt be burried here!

yeah definitely make a new NVG thread about that PCA incident, that's disgusting and I'd like to think you have a good chance of getting it overturned.

That doesn't seem fair, that you'd have to absorb the cost of someone else's mistake

But yeah, it does seem like a story that more people would be interested to hear about.

Hope you're able to enjoy the rest of your trip

WTF? That is goddamn awful!

players arent welcome at stars anymore. pay rake or die. what a fkn joke

That is terrible. As LO said, make a NVG thread. This should be spread.

+ It's atrocious that the staff of a company that earns hundreds of millions of dollars a year is arguing over $500 and not admitting its apparent mistake behind the scenes of its flagship live series that is supposed to showcase poker to the wide audience.

May Chris get his deserved money soon!