You could at least waste some minutes reading some posts from MeleaB before posting any 2 words.

This is an interesting discussion, obviously concentrated on the players who build their “business model” around rake backs and rewards. I do understand why they are upset at the changes with the reward and rake back system, but …...

Why there is any kind of an incentive to the high volume players to begin with? The message I get from the protesters to the changes is that the rake is too high, and without the rake back the game is unbeatable (surprisingly 65% vs 45% makes a difference, really?).

I'm not a high volume player, but I'm a winning player overall. I don't give a hoot about the rake back or rewards (I'm not proverbial teenage kid that can play 24 tables anyway). To me it's simple, either I win at poker, or I don't. And I do win. My question again is this, the rake is too high (all protesters seem to agree on this issue). So, why not to lower a rake across the board for all players? Why do we have a rake back system at all? Let's lower the rake for everybody and let the skill determine everything. Under a current system you can be a loosing player and still make money because you play a lot of tables? Really? The system as it now seems really strange to me. I never payed attention to the issue of rake back before, but current discussion lead me to conclude that high volume grinders cannot beat a game at a proposed rake. That means two things to me, first, don't be a grinder (I cannot put in a volume for significant rake back anyway), and second, the game is not beatable for grinders under the proposed changes, so don't try to grind, but find a way to make money at the game in some other way.

I think the changes PS is introducing are not going far enough. If you are better player than me, you'll get my money, but if I'm better then you, you'll lose. No rake back is even under consideration here, and let's leave it at that. After all BM outlets have zero rake back, and somehow people still make money playing there.

With those 4 sentences we at least established that there is around zero % chance you can beat any limit above NL5 over any significant sample size

You also drastically underestimate teh influence rake has on earnings.

Lets say we sit down headsup and im better than you. I crush you for 8bb/100 which is v nice in theory. Im teh better player and i take your money AS LONG AS STARS DOESNT RAKE MOAR THAN 8bb/100.
If this game is raked with 10bb/100 (which isnt uncommon for microstakes) i'm going to lose 2bb/100 and your winrate will be -18bb/100

Dems teh brakes.

Lol I was legit thinking the exact same thing while I was reading that

The thing is recreational players technically don't actually pay any rake themselves because if you think about it, the money they lose is lost anyway to the regs. The way the site rakes in the money is by the regs taking the recs' money and converting some of it as rake to the site, whilst the rest of it the regs can keep themselves.

nl50hu is raked 11,5bb/100, plo even higher

i thought the same thing too, but i didn't want to be mean and say it

Over 1,500 replies in this thread but this has got to be in the top ten* for misinformed, error-filled posts.


*If we don't include all of those by pocketducks.

I agree. Finally we are getting rid off those anoying mass-multi-tablers slowing the games down. My favorite change is the removal of third-party software though. No more 24-tabling dudes with HUDs and all sorts of software giving you the feeling you are playing against bots. Just pure poker, like its meant to be.

I just don't agree with the changes made to the high stakes regarding VPPs earned. Thats just a pure money grab. But then again, I just play Heads Up SNGs $30 and lower, so I don't really care.

what stakes you crushing? nl 2? teach me pls, senpai

Your favorite change is a change that hasn't been announced and was likely put in the release about VIP changes to be a bit of a diversion. Impressive.

Cliffs: when software does go, you and your ilk will still get penetrated anally.

Also high volume mass table players take the reduced attention to detail and drop in positive win rate then work out if the increase in rake back makes this worth while. So they are playing worse giving you more chance to increase your win rate v them. Attempting to get the higher rake back or even getting it does not even mean they will get more money long run so they are giving you even more chance to profit from them while making games available for you to lay when you want to.
You want high rake v people making every effort not to make a single mistake? or games that have players playing standardised game (due to mass tabling) that you can exploit?
If you are a rec or new these players help you, if you can not beat them then why are you going to be better of when they are only playing 1-4 tables and watching your every move? and why is paying more in rake or getting less back going to help you?

but the only reason he loses is because he's playing vs "hudbots", not because he's bad at poker - have they played real poker, he would win every time!

I lol when I hear regs say they will cut down tables and crush recs even harder when they start paying attention to the tables once HUDs are gone.

You actually think that by watching the tables you can absorb and process as much information as is automatically given to you on the spot by a HUD? You're going to remember the 100 hands you played against a random rec a month ago, I doubt it. No human has the same capacity to take in information as a computer.

If you're still multi-tabling I wouldn't be surprised if your bb/100 actually goes down once HUDs are no more.

+1, especially to all teh heroes like TimStone who genuinely doesn't understand anything but acts like a top dawg.

nobody said that here, this thread has nothing to do with huds

I lol when losing players think by banning Huds they're going to start winning. Huds are really only useful for regs against other regs. Regs will crush Recs regardless. That said, clearly the whole perceived HUD issue is the problem here NOT the high volume grinders.

I haven't seen any rec/losing player say that they will suddenly start winning against regs if HUDs are gone.

This BS keeps getting spouted and it is really irritating.

Of course a more skillful reg is still going to beat a less skillful rec with or without HUDs. Most recs only want a level playing field. That's all.

There is a level playing field already. Anybody including recs are free to use HUDs if they wish and they only cost less than $100 so I don't think price is the issue. If a rec ever wants to get a HUD then get one, what's the issue?

Obviously there would also be a level playing field if HUDs were disallowed for all. But I think this would create a net negative effect compared to positive effect since HUDs actually serve to increase the skillcap involved which is especially important between reg battles, which actually favors the "real poker" argument contrary to what many recs seem to believe. In live poker you get physical and psychological tells, in online poker you get HUDs. These are each different but serve to increase the skillcap, the only difference is in live poker it's impossible to "remove" the physical and psychological tells and in online poker you simply don't have any lol. But getting rid of HUDs makes no sense to me tbh given they don't serve much advantage vs recs anyways and recs will still lose at an equal amount (imo) vs pros, whilst they serve their purpose by increasing the skillcap in the reg v reg battles (that a rec would never understand).

You clearly haven't read the comments on Pokerstars' Facebook posts.

Recs can't accept they get drilled online because others are better than them. They come up with theories of rigged rngs, super users, premium accounts and now it's HUDs that are taking a beating. Truth is once Huds are banned it will be something else that's unfair.

When software does go, I will have a much easier time, my friend. As I mentioned I play HUSNG. Did you ever play the format and realize how reg infected it is? Worst of all, regs with seating scripts. I was always forced to play better players, cause i could never get an empy seat and I didn't use and didn't WANT to use a seating script.

Now HUDs are a smaller problem than that, but I would want to get rid of them too. I use pokertracker, but purely for the sake of convenience of getting my games recorded so I can review them off the table.

You are saying I will get anally penetrated? I rather think these changes will anally penetrate all the others but me. FYI I am a winning player and treat poker just as any other game I play, just with an added money bonus.

Without HUDs (and other 3rd party software) players wouldn't be able to become high volume grinders, clearly the two are related.

Anyway, I never said recs will start beating regs without HUDs. Regs have a higher skill level so will still win. But Regs won't be able to play so many tables and their win rates will drop without HUDs so the recs may actually get to play with another rec once in a while and their loss rates will also drop a bit. This will improve the rec experience no end.

Fellow poker players,
.
I've read this topic for many weeks and weeks now without saying much, but what strikes me the most when catching up every day is how WE the poker players having a go at each other REGs against RECs and so on rather then supporting and sticking together.
I think a lot op players start to forget what's really going on? Or do not want to see it clearly.
And that is that a BIG time stock company is stealing a quick buck from EVERYONE.
I self consider myself as a recreational player albeit trying to work on my game and trying to play as much as I can. Trying to make a little extra on the side of my normal job. Just to do fun things with.
But with a whole bunch of real life obligations such as a family, mortgage and a daytime job I just cant play full time making me a REC simple.
.
This year I made around 4.5k VPPs for most REGs that is a ridiculous amount I know. But for me the REC that means 4 stellar rewards giving me 40$ of rakeback hey ill take that any day. With some end of the year effort I could even reach the 5k and take another stellar. Do not forget Amaya is even removing these stellars. To my knowledge that affects every player. Not only REGs.
.
Point is poker players should just stop arguing amongst each other. And focus on what is really going on.
With these changes everyone is loosing some value. Amaya is telling us they are doing this for the RECs to even out the playing field and creating a better environment for all players.
I don't know what I will benefit when they take away stellar rewards, because that means I loose this extra 50$ in money flowing back to me.
As far as I see it WE the poker players all loose with these changes and there is only one winner called AMAYA.
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GL to all my fellow poker players on the end of year.

Bolded 1) Why the **** would you play that game if it's so "reg infected*"? I assume it's the hypers you're talking about since they're the most popular.
Bolded 2) I can only laugh at you.

Nobody has said this because (much like the person above) they don't want to admit they're losing in the first place. They heavily imply that regs are going to lose a bunch because they lose numbers. It's ****ing laughable.

I missed the memo where Stars said you can't take notes on players, either.