It's some sort of an issue but def not that big of a deal in the current games.
I see the point in the high stakes games with very few players.

I'd rather have this issue than xx% less hands which would obv be the case unless the pools are really big.


Why would any solid poker player risk to get banned and lose his whole stars roll for a tiny little edge push?
A losing player is not gonna win because of that tiny gained edge. I actually like the idea of losing players using a sw and thinking their now winning.. xD

The only real trouble spots which occure once in a while are preflop MW 4betbluffs i think.

It's also not that hard to detect such patterns for stars. If someone is always taking a bit longer in a specific spot all the time and folds/raises the same hands over and over again if someone fast folds/not ff.

should be interesting when the chinese farm teams get ahold of this knowledge

If Fast Fold is fundamentally flawed because it could be exploited by a collusion ring equipped with disallowed software, then online poker is fundamentally flawed because players can run a bot on a separate computer which tells them how to play.

Stars are well aware of the issues revolving around the "fast fold" function, and they have been fully aware even prior to it's release. I was at the Stars meeting the moment it went live, and it was also discussed in depth at that point. No doubt their security department is on top of things. The minimal risk involved is certainly smaller than the risk associated with simple, more conventional ways of colluding and cheating.

^glad you where there at the holodeck. otherwise terrible things may have happend.

So what do they have in place to combat cheaters who use the exploit I described? I wouldn't just assume Pokerstars has everything under control.

That is of no relevance. You can't argue that they don't need to worry about this new security issue because there are some older bigger security issues. Everything needs to be done to ensure the players' money is safe on the site.

Similarly, you can't argue that they need to eliminate a feature because it could potentially be exploited by cheaters. Features of the game are exploited on a daily basis. Using your logic, no one should play anything besides heads up (to avoid collusion, obv).

strange line of argument. remember no player should act out of turn? this rule was introduced for a very good reason. separated from this are problems that get introduced when dealing with humans. you are mixing up apples and eggs and come to a flawed conclusion as a consequence.

I don't eat eggs.

Seriously, though, I don't think players should be allowed to open-fold, but that's always allowed.

My point was that the potential exploitability of a feature doesn't mean you should get rid of it. It means you should take steps to prevent its exploitation. The entire game of online poker is extremely susceptible to collusion. But does that mean we should not play online poker? No. It means as players we must be vigilant, and sites must maintain effective security departments (or preferably hire independent security and auditing firms).

that's why i changed my bank.

this isn't a strange line of argument, it's a very relevant one. same thing applies to real life - should governments make it illegal to take drugs, alcohol, smoke, wear a seat-beat, whatever... we cannot make life/poker 100% safe, without negatively impacting people's rights/enjoyment.

the point is where to draw the line. it's important to minimise the negative impact of closing of this loophole. in this case, i think the exploit is relevant to small player pools (highstakes zoom which is on the cards, so to speak) and could be addressed as i've previously stated - don't start a new table with someone who could gain from the info of your fast fold.

i think 100% preventing it from being used by a network of colluders is only possible by not allowing fast-fold - and i think this is too extreme a response. i would suggest that the best response is pokerstars using data analysis to catch patterns.

I don't work in their security department.

That isn't what I said though, is it.

not a good idea for many reasons. i may be wrong, but the only way i see to save fast fold is to make the fold public.

This would make the game insanely slow.

did i pick the wrong words? possible. you fast fold and everyone at the table gets to see your fold emidiately.

No, your wording was fine. The problem is that now players would be waiting for the players behind them to fast fold (or not), so they could act with more information. This would slow down the game.

Also, couldn't colluders just avoid fast folding when their "friends" are in the blinds? They would always use the option when their "friends" were ahead of them. So I don't see how public fast folding would improve the situation.

That would be a disaster. Just think about how much it would slow the game down for a start. They'd have to rename it Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzoom.

Such a dumb thread.

Fast Fold buttom does not make any sense if there are few players in the pool. What about if the fast fold buttom is enabled to everybody if and only if the pool has a minimum of X players on ?

yes, you are right. this would be world wide zoom wait..

you don't need for players for this. All you need is one player. Anyone who plays less tables than you would be exploitable, with the single tabler being the most exploitable. To elaborate, if you have a second table open up with a single tabler, you know that that user has folded already. If he is a two tabler, and a third has opened up, then you now have a 50% chance that he has folded on a specific one of first two tables.

This affects the exploiters potential from all positions, but IT NEVER affects the ev of the fast folder. The reason is, he is folding no matter what, whether it is raised or not. The only way he could win is if he was in the big blind, and in that position it is not possible to fast fold.

Which also means that someone who is using this exploit is never guaranteed free money, only a higher percentage of stealing.

That is still an exploit, but i would be happy with Stars just announcing that this type of software is prohibited with a potential of banning the account, rather than taking away fast fold (and effectively Zoom). To me it is similar to the luxury of being able to watch the action on tables i am not playing at, though it permits programs like Poker Edge to exist.

just wanna point out that a 2 tabler will have different stacksizes so it's still close to 100% accurate for multitablers.

You have a point, but there is still a chance that his stack size changes between the table he fast folded at and the newer table, as he have have leaped through several in between.

If Stars makes any changes to fast fold it should only be done at 2/5 and 1/2 FR, since the player pool is tiny in those games.

Making some drastic change which makes zoom worse for thousands upon thousands of players for the sake of "protecting" 15 guys playing 2/5 would be utterly absurd.

As mentioned by a few people already, remove the number of tables people are playing in the lobby. This isn't a 100% fix, but still better than nothing.