I dont play below $5/10 so I only had hands and also limited samples (2k-ish per player) on 2 players. What I noticed that stood out is that they coldcall between 10-20% in mp/co/btn and barely 3bet from these positions. Which is pretty much exactly the opposite what most regulars at these stakes do. They also coldcall vs big sizings (3x) which is just not likely at all to be a very good play according to any software unless you are colluding.

Can you look into this a bit more TS, or people that played vs these villains.

pretty gross these smaller sites are just infested with bots. you KNOW the owners of the site can detect these bots, but they continue to just abuse the weaker real players and WPN can keep raking the **** out of the games due to all the bots running.

its ****ing disgusting

I think a big reason for this, aside from collusion, is because they have found very very good population exploits that involve MW pots. This does lead them to be exploitable themselves overall, but it rarely gets done. You can end up seeing some bizarre plo hands sometimes(probably when colluding) Although I believe this does well without the collusion, so when they get to do both it prints heavily.

Any of you have any of the samples of their WR during MW, perhaps I am incorrect here and they are losing in these spots bc of their stats, but I really think it is the opposite and they are outperforming humans here even during no collusion.

Big sites aren't infested with bots?

i've played against all of these players for the last three months on wpn and that's why I'm no longer playing cash games there at all anymore. screw the beast and the rakeback. i watched individual groups of 3 to 6 players at at a time play together in the 50nl pool and sit in and sit out together and change tables together, leave tables together and start tables together. it was so blatant that anyone could see it. then the betting patterns and the way things happened post flop was just as described. i reported this in email at first but then just gave up knowing wpn's joke of customer service wasn't gonna do anything. they also still refuse to credit a deposit i made for a rediculous reason that was there fault but somehow blamed me for a spelling error and won't even look into it so yeah man i'm done with acr other than some donkaments

you must not have played much on 50 blitz there over last three months because i recognize almost all every single name on both tiers of lists and they have all played blitz at one point or a nother, some more than others, but also most of the names on this list are playing 16 to 32 tables at a time and only 5 of those can be blitz tables, and also its not as easy to cheat on blitz but still happens a lot especially in multiway pots as op stated. i didn't recognize as many of the names from the 200 blitz pool but i played there less than 50. some of those guys will literally have every table open from 100 down to 25, also guys like latrom, latrom1, luskiz, unassailable1 and unassailable with slightly different spelling, and then there's the great "makealenagreat" and jordani type players which have also been suspected as being bots and have topped the leaderboard on beast pulling 3 grand a week or more in rakeback for like two years and they all disappeared three weeks ago when the new software was put out only to come back a week or two later lol

Nahh, makealena is definitely not one of them. I'm pretty sure jardani and xorybur are the same individual though, but a bit different from the rest of the bots, maybe tyler can look those 2 up too.

Editing: Xorybur used to play heads-up when those games were still around, together with a lot of accounts holding the lobby pretty much 24/7. The same group was doing it also on microgaming until I guess they got banned (?) and suddenly were gone after I reported them month after month. Never got a refund though, guess I won against them or microgaming couldn't find sufficient evidence to confiscate their money and just blocked their accounts.

It's simply bewildering how long this bot ring has been around operating the same bot profiles and how much money it has taken out of all of online poker in total over at least the last half decade.

They've operated on almost every big site and still operate on some of the biggest sites to this very day. The first I heard about them was the PLO bot ring that was outed here on 2+2 back in 2015. It's possible, perhaps even likely, that they operated on other sites before that.

We know a lot about their unique play-style which gives them away pretty quickly to anybody who has played a lot of hands with them.

Several regs know how to spot them on new accounts fairly quickly, but sites still can't, or choose not to, consistently keep them off of their tables.

We know that the majority of them are on accounts registered from Russia and Eastern European countries.

As far as I'm aware, we still don't have conclusive proof of where they are coming from. The best guess I've seen so far is the information provided in the Corporation Botfarm thread. I'm not even sure if that is the source.

They've been around for at least a half decade. How have they not had any disgruntled former employees that have come out and provided us with information about the source of these bots? Have there simply been far fewer actual operators than I imagined there was operating large amounts of them themselves?

They've literally stolen millions of dollars from online poker players for at least a half of a decade. How has nobody in the poker community, any poker news source, investigated and gotten to the bottom of this yet?

I recognize all of these names as I have played with them the last few months. The main question is what do we do now as players in this pool? Has anyone passed Tyler’s recent findings to anyone at ACR? Do people really believe ACR will just ignore this data and do nothing?

xorybur is such a weird case for me. I recognize that he plays inhuman volume, but something about his playstyle makes him feel human. IDK what it is, I probably just suck at recognizing obvious signs. The other explanation is that the AI is more sophisticated than we'd all like to admit.
Then again, very few humans play multiple pf sizings. I'd be curious to see why did they bother programming that, I doubt there's serious ev gain.

Hello, Rodion Longa, founder of WPD here.
Indeed. Maxim was our agent in Pokermaster and other apps for a while in 2018. At some point his service became very slow and not responsive after which we moved to another agent. That's pretty much the end of the story.

We never shared affiliate deals in any other poker sites.

Interesting note. I, as a human, play varied pre flop sizings, rfi, 3bet and 4 bet.

I do it because I mainly play zone, want to maximize a bit of ev. Have seen a few coaches use this approach, though I really don't like the 5x sizing.

@op can you keep the ball rolling? do the wpn mtt fields. ipoker cash and mtt fields (maybe the most botted site currently) and the chico network ones as well?

exploitively changing pf sizings makes sense and most people do it (2x open SB vs guys who autofold bb, 3b size up for value vs recs etc)
afaik xory has 2 rfi sizings tho (2x and 2.7 iirc), including in EP, which is kind of weird in my opinion, I don't see much value in that. I might be wrong though.

Latrom1 is definitely not a bot, he actually chats.

Xory and Jardani are by far the 2 biggest suspects in the 200nl pool. Xory in particular often folds to min 3bets, and I've been told Jardani occasionally folds to min 3bets. Seems to be a pretty big defect in their programming if they're bots. Oddly though, only Xorybur has played this week and he's only played 1 day and Jardani has actually not accumulated any points for The Beast. Did they get banned? Did they get taken offline so their programming could be updated for bomb pots? Not sure, but pretty telling that both are always top 3 in the Beast but both go the whole week without playing at the same time.

I posted a link to this post on the ACR forums.

I gave both Xory and Jardani the benefit of the doubt for a while, especially Jardani when he actually began playing deepstacked (for a while both would double up in Blitz and immediately refresh that table to reset their stack). But Xory folds to min3bets way too much and while I've never seen it I've been told Jardani does it as well. It seems as if their programming doesn't correctly account for min 3bets.

The multiple sizings thing could be a rakerace thing. They raise a normal size which hands they want value from and then go from the small size with hands they just want to add the rake points for. Although I myself use multiple sizings but that's position base, I have 1 size from each position I don't mix sizings from the same position.

this doesnt make any sense to me. They both play so much that they'd get 1250 even if they played like 10/8.
Either way iirc I looked into it and xory has shown up with both strong and weak hands using both rfi sizings.

I never min3b so I never noticed that, is that why some people in the pool are min3betting sometimes? They suspect I'm a bot too and trying me?

what's the easiest way for me to filter fold vs min3b?

i have pt4, but i think h2n is free for this purpose

Maybe things are different on WPN, but don't disqualify them based on this. There were 23 found accounts on global poker running the same profile and a few of them would chat.

This should do it in PT4:

The rakerace is small potatoes to what you get with the loyalty program. They are both at the 5 Star General level which means for every rake point they get they get 5 combat points, and every 625k combat points they can redeem a 10k bonus. They average ~35k rake points a week, so 5k rake points a day which is 35k combat points a day, which means every ~18 days they play they earn enough points for a 10k bonus. Additionally every 100k rake points you get a "distinction" bonus that starts $2600 at 200k points and increases by $200 for every 100k up until 1 million points where you get a 20k bonus. Then you get an additional $9200 for every 250k points after that until 2 million where you get a $19,200 bonus.

So if they're taking slighly lower EV lines (but still +EV) in order to ensure they see more flops thus paying more rake so they earn more bonuses it makes a lot of sense.

Interesting. Always assumed bots would just be computer programs and not someone sitting at the computer monitoring things.

TBH the sites are in a shitty position. Let's say all these accounts are bots, they ban all of them which is great for reputation but reputation doesn't necessarily = more profits. All these bots get banned they are probably losing half the rake they earn from 25nl, 50nl and 100nl. Sure they save some money on rake race and loyalty program payouts but that won't come close to offsetting the lost rake revenue.

The ironic thing is it will likely hurt the bottom line of winning regs as well. If these bots aren't around there are far less tables running which obviously hurts potential earnings.

beep, beep


Without the bots, there is more money in the ecosystem, so the site generates more rake and gets to keep a higher percentage of it, because as you said most of the bots will be high volume grinders getting 60%+ effective rakeback. Eliminating bots and seat scripters is good for ecosystem and bottom line of the site as well since the longer fish last, the more rake will be generated. I really think most of the sites will end up following Ignition's model some time in the future.

@microdonk ty

this filter setting didn't work, but i could look through all hands where i 3b to 5bb or less and took it down pre.

i have 128 min 3bs made, a couple might be a misclick, far fewer of them are against jardani (since it didn't seem to fold), but xorybur_ i was using ATC, so i'd imagine of those 128 100ish would be at xorybur_ 20ish at jardani 8 at Parcker/other random tests

xorybur_ folded 30 times

jardani folded twice

i'll post the jardani HHs since ppl haven't seen it occur as much.

https://upswingpoker.com/hand/?pokeit=3qsKwHf

https://upswingpoker.com/hand/?pokeit=3qnJBG8

both of these bots mix preflop sizing and also use timebank preflop in unopened bots imo to 'humanize' them, they'll be in a river spot on 1 table, and timebank all the other tables, then once that river spot has finish, instant actions occur on the other tables (lol)

1hand sample but perhaps jardani's 3x range inputs haven't taken 3b sizing into account, but the other 2 sizes have.

hope players get refunded some money, disgusting ****

I'm not so sure. Either way if recreational decides they are never going to improve they will go broke. I did some crude math where I assumed 50NL generates 200k worth a rake. Let's bots generate half of that, while normal regs generate 40% and recreationals generate 10%. I gave the bots 65% rakeback, regs 40% and recs 30% (I'm including rakerace as part of rakeback %). Assuming these percentages normal regs generate 48k in profit for the site, the bots 35k and recs 14k. So even if the recs last twice as long, they still don't make up for the lost revenue of removing the bots.

That also doesn't account for the lost rake revenue from fewer tables running. With the volume they put in that keep tables going it wouldn't be a stretch that total rake slips 25%-40%. With these fictional numbers the effective rakeback % of the pool drops ~15% but the rake being collected drops by a far greater number so I don't see how banning all these bots is really in the sites best interest from a business stand point. Unless people just say enough is enough and stop playing, which if it didn't happen after Joe Ingram blasted ACR and WPN it isn't going to happen.

Extremely disturbing

Maybe the loss from bots could be recouped , from new players attracted to the site because they can get a clean game , mostly free of bots. We will never know.