Sounds awfully like a GTO nerd playing not to lose rather than a bot

Not necessarily directed at me but i just made a search here to see if anyone else had talked about the two players i mentioned cause it was really tilting obvious how they at least are the same player, and for the number of games, results and style of play, timings, etc i would say using some form of assistance. They even started playing on the same day and both made a pause from 1 May to mid June (maybe accounts frozen for review) and one account from Georgia and one from Kazakhstan (GTFO).


I wrote what i did here and then wrote them an email with more detail, doubt any of those things accomplishes anything but i at least vented.


And in my case being that my country is regulated, i can realistically only play on pokerstars (no traffic on 888), high rake, shitty pool, and spins not even allowed for some random bs. I would really like that wpn would be an option cause if not for the bot thing it's really great (rake, traffic, software).

Yeah man I didn't know having a million posts background is a criteria for being legit on something, or maybe posting a nonsense on every thread that you have no idea what they are talking about makes you a top investigator!!

Guys do you want to know another proof about those accounts!

These bots are running by a company or a producer or a network or whatever, they usually change and upgrade their strategy and lines over time, So in my initial post, I talked about a specific stats of them which was iso jamming and funny thing is all those accounts now changed that line and they are not crazy iso jamming anymore!! all those accounts that are playing at same time, coincidence haa? or maybe because all of them are just a product of a company!

So I gave up just one specific thing and they resolved it! and interesting thing is this happened after I gave the URL of this thread to WPN game integrity on their forum! That is why we don't tend to share more technical stuffs about them! Honestly after I posted that, several times I thought about asking 2+2 support to remove that sentence from my post and I wish I did that, and now I feel terrible that they use that to eliminate that leak!

But now at least we know someone is reading this thread and obviously he doesn't care if we have a single digit posts background!!!

I think you are right and at least I made a mistake by saying confirmed, Thank you for reminding

I don't know what you call an evidence that you address all this thread zero proof but maybe if you read it carefully or by asking from a Spin pro about them maybe you would see one or two proof instead of zero!

2. could easily be explained with hotkeys. 99% of the time I bet by hitting a single key on my keyboard.

Aren't spins close to solved? Given the simplicity of the format I don't think it's damning if multiple players play identically.

Some players don't really adjust to others, right? It's easier/lazier not to. It's not something I've ever tried to pay attention to though so IDK.

I think this kind of thing is hard to prove. No individual point is damning even if everything together is pretty suspicious.

Have you considered other sites? Ignition? I wouldn't like to play on a site where everyone is complaining about bots. Makes it seem like they don't keep up with game integrity too well.

Nah man, don't do that. At least on WPN you know what you're playing against. Considering the completely anonymous format on Ignition, every time some idiot pushes allin preflop (in a cash game, mind you) with a trash hand like 28o and you call with your AA and the flop is 882, you will always wonder if you're being screwed by the site. Been there, done that.

I think there is a decent chance you are correct...on some or most of those who are accused of being bots. But, on its face, some of these points you bring up feel a little flimsy. No biggie. They don't play the Weekly tournament could be related to being a bot...or maybe they don't read English very well and/or aren't aware of the existence of the tournament in the first place. Just an example.
But sure, it is certainly possible and we know that bot rings are a thing.

There is always reason for skepticism or critical questioning of bot accusations...because there are so many incorrect accusations out there.

My hunch is that the poker sites themselves receive 10x more accusations against legitimate players. I have personally bern accused of being a bot quite a few times. Some who are the type to say, "I've played poker for a long time and I can tell."

I've played poker long enough to know that some bot accusations are laughably incorrect. Is 5 million hands enough poker? (I'm guessing. Have lost some databases over the years)

The 3-player spin-and-go format would be a tricky one to determine bots imo because the game can lead to a more formulaic style for certain individuals anyway.

But you seem to have a decent number of different elements that combined do potentially add up to something. That's IF all of the accused do ALL of the things on that list of evidence as I believe you are claiming.


I would want to know how many of these accounts were iso jamming and how frequently they are doing so....and how much they are doing so after you think they changed.

But if it is 20 accounts all going from super-frequent iso-jam (more than you seeing them do it once or twice) straight to all of them never doing it at all then I agree that is certainly suspicious and decent evidence. And also possibly indicative of them seeing this thread.

However, I have played quite a few fishy players in spin-n-gos who just love to shove or iso-shove especially in their first hands or first few hands...sometimes multiple times. I've seen this a lot from fishy players at heads-up SNG too. First hand of the heads up...low blinds....preflop shove!! LOL. I will typically have slightly looser standards to call the shove in such a scenario and I end up seeing K3o or something silly.

Semi-related: I've been accused of somehow being unethical when I shove maybe a little bit earlier than others (in terms of stack sizes) against slightly more passive players who would be the type to want to limp in when we have 6BB left or something.

First of all I want to thank you because you read this thread and replied it with much attention, I really appreciate it, This is the only we can hope that high quality people read this and make noise about it.

Please note that this thread and all the information are not provided by just one desperate player trying to redeem his lost at the game, Similar to other major networks like Stars and Party, We regular players at WPN are in contact with each others, talking about any suspicious players and sharing our observations, I can talk only about myself, I started Spins from 5$ games at WPN and I successfully moved up in stakes and now I am a regular player at 50$ games (which is the highest Spin stakes at WPN) with an acceptable win rate, Only this year I played close to 30k games so far and you can find me every week at SitNCrush WPN leaderboard, I am using SpinNgo NoteCaddy HUDs of HM3 plus Spinfire HUDs of H2N, Also if I include other regulars volume that we are in contact, we have more than 200k games sample only for this year at WPN which is infinite amount of hands, So I think when we are talking about specific stats or our suspicions about something is based on real evidence.

About your question, I can firmly say that all the accounts in the list have similar tendencies including they were iso jamming +70% in shallow stacks until recently that I talked about the change, And now based on our observation ALL OF THEM suddenly started iso jamming around 30%, This is a significant change in a short time by a group of players at same time that can't be ignored! I mean it is a no brainer to notice a static player is iso jamming 3 hands out of 4, And when suddenly all the suspicious accounts start iso jamming only 1 hand out of 4 hands, I don't think it is really hard to notice for regulars who play 2k games per day altogether right?! Actually other regs are mad at me because I discussed about that specific stats which those accounts (bots) now resolved it (probably by their company or something)!! and honestly they are right to be mad, we are in an unfair environment and all we can have are these exploitations and when we gave those up then it's really hard to battle against a robot.

Just for mentioning we won't provide any technical stats in the public sight anymore unless to a real confirmed investigator or something in a private manner.

This sudden change can be a real evidence in addition to others we mentioned in our initial post for those who really want to see a proof!

Is the 70% thing to 30% thing your estimate based on observation or do you have stats on this? Sorry, I don't know what is allowed for player tracking at this site.

I am always suspicious of estimated statistics based on observation because personal bias and other factors can be such a huge factor.

I'm reminded of some of my blackjack days. A dealer would tell a new player that his upcard of a 6 has an 80% chance of busting. He knows because he's been a dealer.for 30 years having dealt thousands and thousands of hands so he is familiar with the frequency. The actual percentage for this situation is about 41-42%. That isn't observational. That is based on the mathematics of the cards themselves and simulations, etc. Similar to live poker players who insist they know how the cards run and that hands with a 35% chance win way more than that online...blah blah blah.

Trust me, I'm not accusing you of any of that. I suspect you are probably correct in your belief that there is a bot ring. But I do know that observationally estimated stats can be very incorrect sometimes even from people who are 100% convinced they saw what they think they saw in their large sample of thousands.

Regardless, it is also possible, albeit probably not likely, that a group of people discussing or backing each other decided to change their personal strategy charts. Maybe their all-in strategy was too aggressive and they thought it could be improved. Something like that.
I don't know if one of two of your pieces of evidence and observations really does much because they almost all would have an alternative explanation. But adding it all up it certainly seems a strong likelihood that you are correct about it being a bot-ring from the same program.

Anything further on this. Just curious?
Are these players still around? Any changes in playing style or any further evidence against them.
If these are bots then certainly hoping they take action on this.

Strangely enough the bots from the list are almost all gone. 🙂

All the suspicious players aka RTA cheaters from Belarus and Ukraine are strongly there and always at the top of the LB:

whoopensocker, Westchester, Paulitrovic, Gerda_kitty

Emilayknows, NickTheKick


About bots and the provided list, Still a good percentage of them are playing in turn at 50s, 40s and 25s and I am facing them everyday:

Snufkin25
WernerVonCroy
MerryDancers
Rumblehorn
Knotweed8
BeataVirgo116
MarCEsCEns
Shardik7
Haleyon
HellForLeather
Morhinomia

Also I can see from the SnC LB a few 15s and 10s bots are still there like:

Mutant143
LincolnSixEcho
pocketprofit
Saviour97

Also I saw a few new suspicious accounts with same criteria which I can's still introduce them until I can be sure,

But for sure, healthy numbers of them are gone, which for sure not by WPN as no one received any refund or any related message from WPN, so probably they are gone by their company or bot holders or whatever until they get replaced by new ones as happened in the past.

The two I complaint about stopped playing the next day after i wrote here and sent an email to wpn.

Didn't receive any money so i guess they just froze the accounts to investigate... or the players felt the heat and decided to leave the accounts and make new ones/ play elsewhere before getting caught.

You could show phil nagy, nanonoko, and whoever allegedly works for their security team all the evidence in the world and they won't stop these problems. As over the last few years they have gone radio silent about them showing they just don't care and they are too incompetent to stop it anyways. And even when they do catch bots or cheating its years too late, and they cant even confiscate any winnings. The best is when you have played thousands of games or tourneys vs these bots and then get a fat $1.29 cent refund for the last nail in the coffin, usually you dont even get that tho lol

LOL There were a ton of americans that werent playing on most legal sites by the time black friday came around. And i wont tell you why. There are just as many cheaters in europe and asia.

Bots feel so comfortable online that they flooded the entire lobby JackPOT SNGs ! It's just a nightmare!
This list is just the tip of the iceberg. It makes no sense to list all of them, anyway, the poker room covers them. Just know their nicknames:


BCE_AXYEHO, EMILAYKNOWS, G20LLD, WAKANDA4EVER, MISHAPK, N1GHTM4RE, ATCHEM, JACK8DA, PHGB, DIMASIC, GERASIMGIPSY, CARLOSST8, WONANDGOOO