The Winning Poker Network is currently allowing at least nine bots to operate openly on their network.

This year alone two have won the Bad Beat Jackpot with the most recent winner pocketing around 30k.

While these players have slightly different VPIPs they all have seem to not leaks. They also have basically the same float and bluff frequency. Knowing that having a group of players that folds to flop bets 51% of the time is not going to be enough evidence though. The patterns in their game selection and mannerisms should be beyond the burden of proof.

****** When checking players stats generally a couple of them would have slightly different than the rest of the group but none of them stray to far from the others. It is very possible that some are programmed a bit tighter than others but not much.*******

Things that tip us off that they are bots are as follows:

They are all from Sweden.

They do not use waiting lists.

They do not play in the 30bb cap games.

They do not time out.

They do not misclick.

They do not time bank.

They will play 10nl to 100nl.

They do not sit out for an orbit during very long sessions.

They generally leave once the game gets under four handed.

They appear in groups of two and three.

They do not sit more than 2 at a six max table ** did find a few hands were they did but one left shortly afterwards **

They all use similar betting styles for periods of time. For example they all would bet within a BB of the pot as Cbets for a period of time.

They do not chat.

They do not play in the free beast tournament given to players that put in certain volume. I will provide a screenshot of one of these players playing in a cash game and sitting out of a tourney with a 50k prize pool if nessasary.

They have login names that are different then there screen names but include the screen name in the login name. Example is XXXXuser or XXXX with a number after it.

Around the time of this story breaking

http://pokerfuse.com/news/poker-room...-sweden-21-02/

The group seemed to disappear for close to a week.

Winning Poker has been contacted about this on numerous occasions about this and has failed to do anything about it. Players have been waiting for the site to ban these players for close to a year now.

Attempts to stop them in the forum and by email have been dated back to at least May of last year.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1486

I urge for Winning Poker Network to stop these players from stealing from the community and to return as much funds as possible to the effect players as I am certain they have at least took six figures of of the site by this point. Realistically they have take close to that this year.

At this point I would hope other players could chime in and talk about these players that we all know are bots. I'm sure my list is incomplete at this point.

Also I would like any mods or people with experience on this forum to tell me what the policy on outing players names is and things of that nature.

Also can you please enable my PMs so I can talk to players privately.

Sites should be focusing more time on eliminating bots and less time on fair play etc..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qElJUllRv5c

what do you expect from Winning Poker great cashout time which is why people only play there. But otherwise their software is pathetic and cheap.

Did these guys go down for long after the last software update?


--
Kahn

Can you post their HEM popup stats?

I did not play too much yesterday but I was told they were playing by the late evening yesterday.

I will start to do this ASAP. I've had a busy week with class. There stats do differ slightly. One might be 22/18 and another 20/17 but they all fall with in a similar range like this. Hopefully I will be able to find some similarities that are undeniable.

You really need to look at their stats because tbh most of the things in your evidence list are meaningless and in no way evidence of botting.

The numbers, on the other hand, could help you prove your case.

Dude youve been ranting over a week but posting jack for proof or anything really.

so solid poker player stats?

I've played probably close to the fifth or sixth most hands of 50NL and down on this site and I have noticed all of the same stuff with group of about the same group of players. Its so obvious I don't need to even ask who the suspected players are.

The problem with using stats to prove anything is that its very possible that the bot maker could make each profile a bit differently (if the program can beat poker players I would think it would have the mind blowing technology to set up one player that plays a 24/20 style and one player that plays 20/17)

The main tip of these players is all the patterns observed about and tons of bet sizing stuff. If the Original Poster (A+ handle btw) stays on a milk carton, I will start posting some stats I have on these players.

The postflop stats on the ipoker bots were remarkably similar, pretty much every number on the popup was within 1 of each other.

Some of those ipoker bots had different preflop stats though, ranging from 28/24 to 22/18 iirc.

Since I have played on this network (I began around Dec 2011) these players have been around this site. At the time, there were only 1 or 2. Now, as OP mentioned, there are close to 10. More and more continue to pop up over time while the same old ones continue to play. It's not the stats that bother me the most. Their action timing, ability to play long sessions without ever sitting out or varying their action timing or bet sizing is what convinces me the most. Also, the fact that they ALL are from Sweden and ALL play the exact same games is quite alarming. What I mean by this is that they do not play the CAP games. They also never played the Short tables up until a few months ago. As soon as I first saw one sitting a short table I was shocked and thought it was a mistake. Well, after this they all started sitting at the short tables after NEVER sitting at these games for over a year. It's just little things like this that convince me they are bots. I was under the impression they weren't bots because they seem to make adjustments and whatnot but the way they play (consistency in bet timing, sizing, lines taken with certain hands etc) has convinced me they most likely are bots. Try playing ~8 tables and take the EXACT same amount of time for each action on each table. It's nearly impossible because you will, at times, be involved in several different hands and unless you literally don't take any time to think then you can't act as fast and consistent as they do. That's all I have to add right now. If we have to chime in with stats and whatnot I'll do what I can to help (I've played for a while here but don't put in sick volume) but like I said it isn't the similarities in stats/playstyle for the most part it's the way they act.

One other thing I thought I'd add to OP's list is that their sessions almost always start and end at the same time without breaks/interruptions. It's as if they're tied to a strict work schedule or whatnot.

Also, I'll add some of the things I posted in the official BCP thread about these "bots" but most of these have already been mentioned either in this post of the OP.

-Similar HUD stats (not absolute... some play tighter than others, some 3bet more some less, etc.)
-Nearly identical bet sizing (post flop anyway. a couple of them have different opening sizes and 3b sizes but more-or-less their sizing is the same)
-Identical timing tells (this is the biggest evidence imo that they are bots. they always take the exact same amount of time to fold, call, raise etc. and their timing pretty much never varies (ie. opponent donk shoves the river which made the Swedish player the nuts it's always 1, 2, 3, call. Most players would call much quicker here but these players have the same timing whether they made the nuts or are just folding). They never use the Auto-Fold checkbox (preflop) unless they are UTG + 1. Go ahead, watch them. I've never seen any of them use this feature unless they are in this position.
-They play the same games, like you mentioned, but never CAP tables. Some compelling evidence that they are part of some sort of group is the fact they they NEVER played the (Short) tables. A few months ago (give or take) they ALL suddenly started sitting in these games. Like I said, I've played on this network for a while so I have been able to notice tendencies between these players. This was a big one imo.
-They don't play 3-handed or less (usually, there has been some instances where it has been me, the player in question, and 1 other weaker player and they continued to play 3-handed but they almost always insta-sit out as the game breaks).
-They don't use wait lists.
-They don't chat (not compelling evidence obviously but just another coincidence)
-They play many hours at a time (6-8 hour "shifts" straight with no breaks. Definitely not compelling evidence of a bot as many players can do this but they do it with such consistency while exhibiting all of the other behaviors [never breaking their timing, never varying bet sizes, etc] that it's a bit suspicious.

3bet PF Call FCbet Cbet F Donk F Call PFR AF Afq 4bet


5.52 32.14 81.43 1.87 12.36 3.7 58.25 17.24
7.5 37.59 81.06 0 12.44 3.5 57.2 16.07
5.52 36 77.26 0 11.01 3.25 56.9 12.5
5.37 34.07 74.59 0 13.85 3.18 58.8 12.34
6.17 31.78 85.61 0 11.07 4.22 58.63 13.85
5.13 31.51 71.5 0 11.1 3.07 52.68 16.38
5.87 32 76.86 0 12.67 3.48 54.27 14.63
6.72 42.11 83.45 0 13.62 3.26 58.49 5.56
5.65 37.04 79.58 0 10.44 3.51 56.69 14.21

These are stats from 6 max when the table has no empty seats. Player 2 had the an extremely high win rate which suggest that they were probably really hot on hands that I played with them. Player 8 I have only 4k in hands on so it could be due to a weaker sample size. Most players I have between 10k -25k in hands on.

Back to what I said earlier these stats are common for winning players the only real tell tale stuff here is that they all seem to have the close to the same Aggression Frequency and none of them ever donk lead a flop.

I will do 9 handed stats and also do some bet sizing stats. One of the ways I've figured out most of these players were most likely bots was they all seemed to have the same pre and post flop tendencies. Betting almost pot on the flop, 5x raising to isolate a single limper and betting with in a dollar of the pot every time with value hands.

I outted these Swedes to True Poker support atleast a half year ago. I assume they have not done anything? They were certainly the most obvious botting I've noticed since playing online poker.

Has any evidence been posted concerning this yet?
Or is it just speculation?
Have the names been posted either? Or is that not allowed?
Any other off site links available concerning this?

Here is a better view of those some sample stats. Side note is player 8 has a small sample and player 2 has an usually high winrate for 20k hands.

3bet	Call FCbet	Cbet F	Donk F	Call PFR	AF	Afq	4bet
5.52	32.14	81.43	1.87	12.36	3 .7	58.2	17.24
7.5	37.5	81.06	0	12.44	3.5	57.2	16.07
5.52	36	77.26	0	11.01	3.25	56.9	12.5
5.37	34.07	74.59	0	13.85	3.18	58.8	12.34
6.17	31.78	85.61	0	11.07	4.22	58.63	13.85
5.13	31.51	71.5	0	11.1	3.07	52.68	16.38
5.87	32	76.86	0	12.67	3.48	54.27	14.63
6.72	42.11	83.45	0	13.62	3.26	58.49	5.56
5.65	37.04	79.58	0	10.44	3.51	56.69	14.21

Sorry apparently no matter what I try it won't let me present the numbers in an organized fashion. Maybe I can give the full numbers and put them in a Google Doc or something. These were just a few of the number to show they have some uniformity.


So the cliff on the numbers is out of the 72 stat numbers given only one or two stat numbers seem off by anything significant. They also never lead flops which other than one leading 1.8 percent.

Use your snipping tool or something similar to take a screenshot of the HEM popup.

Then upload the pic to imgur, and link it here by clicking on the little yellow mountain looking icon and putting the url in.

This was already covered in the ipoker and party bot threads.

When you post winning bot stats all you are doing is educating the less smart bot users as to what the better ones are doing.

The best ones would have enough randomization in their play (sub optimal in smaller pots) to keep themselves under the radar, I would think.

Table tags FTW. Edited your post for you.

Is it against rules to post the assumed bot names here?

Its probably not a good idea to reveal names because it can tarnish name if innocent and if guilty could give them a chance to get money of the site or change things up.

Thank you so much. I have been working on and off all day on making making a big spreadsheet and trying to upload it.

I actually have a lot of respect for you realizing that even though you are convinced they are guilty. Many here wouldnt have shown that kind of understanding or restraint.

It also in my mind makes you a more credible source as that shows very good judgement imo.

Keep on it. I wish I had some stats on these guys to help you get to the bottom of this.

Its important for players to stay vigilant against cheaters.

Good luck.

Agree 100% w/5th
However i am a Reg on BCP and wouldnt mind keeping dibs as well if u wanted to PM me.