Probably they dont want grinders

Except that you can 30+ table and they created the Beast which requires you to grind 200,000 hands or more each month to justify playing below 100nl.

It's a massive rake grab that ignores the health of the ecosystem. They may not care, but it certainly isn't helping the games.

since there has been no sign of taking it out, are there any ways of making the promos better??? maybe we should go in that direction. ive played a good sample this month and im getting absolutely smashed by the rake =(

Not sure why anyone is still playing here and having this discussion. WPN's model is to make you grind out 250k hands a month to have a shot at making any cash.

They are on the dealt method, which makes theyre VIP system seem more attractive, which also attracts more nits. The more nits they have playing these games the more the juiced up rake will slowly eat away at everyone, causing them to slowly burn through their rolls. This applies for all games not just games under 100nl.

On the other hand the BBJ and Beast at a glance make fish want to play here for their shot at some big cash. Who knows maybe if I play enough hands the BBJ might hit at my table! Again another win for WPN, more net depositors.

Unless you are are winning the beast every month, which we know only one person is, most players now become net losers at WPN. Even if your coming out slightly ahead with the beast and VIP your putting in an insane amount of time and effort for such a small amount of money. Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me. (Also consider all the rake youve paid and how much WPN is making off you is way more than your up)

This is what all US facing networks want. Merge has doen away with RB now and made their VIP program worse for higher stake/higher volume guys. Its the trend of online poker unfortunatly. Winners are not welcome anywhere.

The only way to send a message to WPN is to stop playing. Traffic is already decreasing there, let it die and theyll do something about it.

It would be tough to isolate the damage done because most people play on both the Beast tables and regular tables and there isn't really an easy way to separate the data between the two. The reason it's difficult is because in PT the amount of rake paid includes the BBJ/Beast fee so you would need a way to isolate the BBJ/Beast rake from the regular rake in every single hand you've played (which includes hands you win that don't go to the flop). The amount of rake paid will also vary from player to player depending on playing style.

With that said, I can tell you how much rake I have paid. Over 146k hands at 10NL 6max, through a combination of both regular and BBJ tables (I'd have to say 80-90 percent BBJ tables) I've paid ~14 big blinds/100 hands in rake. I would expect others' rake to actually be higher, as this is by playing a very tight style. None-the-less in my opinion this amount of rake is quite unacceptable. I don't have enough data to compare the rake between WPN and other networks playing this same style and same stakes but it definitely seems very high. I only have 10K hands @ Merge and my rake paid there is ~6 big blinds/100. This is an inconclusive sample size so take it how you will but I'd guess that isn't too far from the actual amount.

EDIT: Okay, let me know if this makes sense and if I'm doing this right. I ran a filter in PT3 for 10NL 6max (my largest sample), saw flop, and won hand. Now these would be all the hands I won when saw flop and had the BBJ rake taken with all of the preflop hands excluded (hands where rake is not taken). Here are the numbers I got:

Out of the 146k hands, I won 10003 when I saw the flop. So if you multiply the 10003 x .10 (big blind taken from each pot for BBJ) you'll see that I paid $1003 in BBJ rake for the ~10003 hands I won. I'm really not good at math and formulas so this is where I get confused. How do I convert this into BBJ rake in big blinds/100 hands. I played 146k hands, won 10003 postflop and I paid $1003 in ESTIMATED BBJ rake over the course of this sample (estimated because, like I said, I played both BBJ and regular tables but again 80-90 percent BBJ tables as that's nearly all that run). If you can use that information and tell me how much I've paid in BBJ (the same fee as the beast fee) rake I guess you'll know (roughly) how much the BBJ is costing in terms of bb/100 unless my logic is completely wrong.

6.86 big blinds/100? That's the number I got using a formula I found. Let me know what you guys think. Sorry for the repost, maybe a mod can merge this into my last post.

I think your formula is flawed. I believe a better way to calculate how much the rake affects your winrate is this:
1. Filter all hands at BCP for 1 stake (e.g. Stake = 100nl) (include all hands, even the ones with no flop)
2. Find total hands played, total rake payed, average # players dealt into hand

Rake You Paid =
(Total Rake Payed) divided by (Average # Players Dealt Into Hand)

Rake You Paid (BB) =
(Rake You Paid) divided by (BB of your Stake)

Rake You Paid (BB/100)
[Rake You Paid (BB)] divided by (Total Hands Played / 100)

For me:
Stake: 100nl
Total Rake Payed: $2794.80
Average # Players: 5.12
Total Hands: 30,841

Rake I Paid (BB/100) = 1.77 BB/100

To make it even easier, you can filter for where exactly 6 people were dealt into the hand, so you don't have to use Average # Players. You can do the same for 5 people, 4 people, etc. But it should give you a fairly accurate picture of how the rake is affecting your winrate. Plus, your Rake Paid (BB/100) should be lower if you have a good Rakeback deal.

Sorry, I made a mistake in this calculation since not everyone dealt into the hand pays the rake, only the people who saw the flop (I think). PT4 doesn't give an easy way to determine this so I will estimate 2.25 players per flop and Rake I Paid (BB/100) is more like 4.02 BB/100 before rakeback. I did some more calcs on my own, and I think The Beast constitutes ~2.5 BB/100 - OUCH!!! THIS SUX. YES, PLEASE TAKE AWAY THE BEAST!!!

I've been playing on this network since Black Friday, except for a few months on Carbon before I learned they will never pay, and the Beast is nothing other than a monthly payout of the badbeat jackpot. Nothing More! The same amount of money is being removed from each pot as before.

Let me say that the Beast GREATLY increased tables in play. Before the Beast, I had a hard time playing 10 tables because they were not in action. Now, after the Beast, not only can I play 10 tables from noon to 3am, but I can actually table select because so many tables are in play. Also, with 20 or so people pocketing 1k a month in Beast money, more people are playing higher stakes.

Regarding the number of hands needed to make good Beast money, I'm in the top 10 and I've played 109k hands in January. If someone can play 250k in a month, they would be on top. So, if a person grinds out 100k hands, they can will get a 2k payout monthly.

If people don't want to play jackpot tables, start normal tables and play them. I understand the rake drain that these tables are, but people love jackpot tables, so that's where we all play. If you don't like jackpot/Beast tables, don't play them.

The majority of the fish play the BBJ/Beast tables, because they don't understand how the rake is working (and raping them) and think they have a shot of hitting the BBJ. The non BBJ/Beast tables are reg infested, who would want to constantly play vs that? Not only are you losing a lot of your edge, your also losing volume from the lack of tables.

Who_Yaw, if what you say is true, then I am all for the Beast/BBJ. However, have you ever looked at how much you are paying in Beast/BBJ per month and how much you are returned? This month I so far paid ~$750 in Beast/BBJ alone (not counting regular rake), and I will be paid back ~$120 for being in top 120 players. Plus I will get a freeroll into the tournament, which I will be unable to play this month. So I'm paying ~$600 per month. If the Beast/BBJ brings in enough player traffic to compensate, then I'm for the Beast/BBJ. It's hard to quantify without knowing if the player traffic will decline if Beast/BBJ is removed.

The Beast isn't going anywhere:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=4848

gamename??? mines pretty easy to decipher

Response is pretty simple then - won't be playing there. They lose, not me.

All the sites are grabbing what they can, while they can. They know eventually, when U.S. sites start opening, they are done.

Its funny that most of the people who signed this are not only still playing here, but are trying to make a run at the beast.

I really dont understand. Winning the beast is barely worth the time and effort, and any other place is beyond a waste of time. Anyone making a serious run is getting crushed at the tables, its just a fact.

I really have no idea how or why WPN still has traffic. Fast checks just are not worth putting in 90 hour weeks for.

I think it's inevitable that at some point there will only be the hardcore beast grinders all playing 40 tables against each other (half serious). Everyone else will have been bled dry or given up on the farce aside from the dwindling number of recreational players and people playing a few tourneys here and there.

signed, the beast and BBJ is what keeps me off this site.

I dont know why your half serious when they are 7/8ths the way there. Ive got 10 FR tables open right now and Beast players are in at least 7 of every 9 seats at every table. Lowest PFR/VIP numbers i see anywhere. Turning into a WSEX rock garden...

It's interesting that there are obviously a lot of customers who hate it and yet they are brushed off by the company which is actually going in the opposite direction and expanding the program and is only pissing off even more people.

It's starting to seem like FTP about 6-8 months out from black friday when they started new programs bringing in more rake once they knew they were going insolvent.

Said perfectly.

I actually made a run at the beast but I think i'm giving up. It's just not worth the time put in. all players at the top are losing players - i've talked to them - and the only reason they are a winner over time is because they get a sick rake back check.

Just cancel the stupid promo - if you want jackpot tables that's fine - but The Beast should be gone.

As for traffic - the site has great games - Heads up action is very soft - and tournies are even softer. Only thing holding this site from being great is this awful Beast promotion

Yep, wanted to deposit the found out about the drop. No way, not until its gone.

Signed

Signed. Getting the **** off this site as soon as a better option presents itself.

Signed.