My god, man, have you actually read through the thread? The investigating they've done points to more than a simple downswing very strongly. They're not upset about what people raise with or call with, but rather some EXTREMELY odd results that you might have seen if you'd bothered to read more than a couple posts herein.

my apologies; hope you can prove what u want to prove

Hey guys

After reading the posts I started to wonder who this network was so we started an investigation with some friends. We looked in poker scout and saw that the software provider is a company called B.P SYS in Israel

http://www.b-p-sys.com/Default.aspx

They have contact form there if anyone is interested.

Most likely this is the company that develops the software as what I know is not uncommon to have software development there.

Then we did some more digging.

On all play2b sites it refers to a class 4 license for poker on Beproga Limited. This is the company that holds the platform license

“as Poker Room, on the Class 4, number LGA/CL4/800/2012 of Beproga Limited”

http://www.lga.org.mt/lga/content.aspx?id=109045

Also there are was other sites like wan t e d t o p l a y.com and Platinum-Poker.com in the Google search that refer to the same license.

This is taken from the footer of w a n t e d t o play.com

“ w a n t e d to p l a y Limited, a company registered in Malta, bearing company registration number C 54414 and having its registered address at Vault 14, Level 2, Valletta Waterfront Floriana FRN 1914, Malta, is fully licensed and regulated by the Malta Lotteries & Gaming Authority and operates under license number LGA/CL3/800/2012, issued on August 23rd 2012.
Wanted play is powered by Beproga Limited software LGA/CL4/800/2012 also regulated by the said Authority.”

I did a search in company of records

http://rocsupport.mfsa.com.mt/pages/...formation.aspx

Beproga Limited
C 54948
VAULTS 14, LEVEL 2, VALLETTA WATERFRONT, FLORIANA

Which is strangely the same address as Wanted Play Limited

This is leading me to believe that the poker network is not run by play2b but some company behind it. Maybe play2b is reseller or have their own network on beproga like goldbet has with Revolution with “the league” network?

I'd like to point out that people seem to be putting too much emph on "but they wouldn't do this if they were super users" in individual hands assuming that they should know this. They might not KNOW how to LOOK like normal good players, cause they, well, aren't. But they might be TRYING to anyways. For instance level 2 thinking cheater thinks what would a cheater do normaly? he might answer with "play lots of hands." So level 2 cheater thinks one step above that to mask his cheating and plays fewer hands. He doesn't know that KQ high is normally a fold to a river raise and doesn't think that a call would be suspicious and he thinks raising river always when winning would be more suspicious.

Ok. Nice Detective work, but what does that actually mean then?

Hey Alex,

I am "iwinnomore". Since I experieced the exact same as you did I quit playing there about 3 weeks ago. Here continues a conversation I had with one of the persons that recomended play2b (And I as you have played about 3 milion hands from 2007 to this date and have never reacted like this before):

[2013-07-30 18:49:40] X: im suspecting there is playerws that are cheting on the site
[2013-07-30 18:52:48] Y: on which site?
[2013-07-30 18:52:57] X: play2b
[2013-07-30 18:53:02] Y: how come?
[2013-07-30 18:54:31] Y: it seems like they can see your cards or?
[2013-07-30 18:54:45] X: yes
[2013-07-30 18:55:00] Y: hmm any usernames?
[2013-07-30 18:56:32] X: neversaynever
[2013-07-30 18:56:35] X: and also
[2013-07-30 18:57:26] X: when he loggs in there are like a ton of other nicks that logs in, and when he loggs out, all the other nicks loggs out
[2013-07-30 18:57:37] X: so I can play hu vs 4 guys on the site
[2013-07-30 18:57:48] X: and in 2 seconds they all logs out
[2013-07-30 18:57:59] X: they all have the same betsizes
[2013-07-30 18:58:10] X: and that have happend about 4 times in 2 days now
[2013-07-30 18:58:24] Y: at highstakes or?
[2013-07-30 18:58:31] Y: how much have u lost?
[2013-07-30 18:58:31] X: 2/4 to 5/10
[2013-07-30 18:58:39] X: got a bit over 12 left
[2013-07-30 19:02:23] X: I realy wanna quit playing this site
[2013-07-30 19:02:30] X: think Ive raked about 8k maybee

Anyway.. Send me a PM so I canadd you on skype. Im not familiar with 2+2

/iwinnomore

Hello, missing piece. Tell me you have some more hh's for me.

looks like I can't pm you yet. Have to have more posts or have it activated?

Mod help please? Been trying to contacting him for a while. Thanks

*

Edit/MH: Passed on Binbs' e-mail address to Minator, per Binbs.

What do people think about contacting some poker news sites about this issue? More exposure would surely be a good thing, but I dont want to do it prematurely.

I feel the time might be right, now that more people have confirmed suspicions but again, we dont have any hard evidence.

Maybe if I can get some hands from iwinnomore, who has now seen the thread.

FWIW, to the people complaining about the evidence only being circumstantial, you do know that it can convict? W/E

My question is, do the villains ever get coolered? Set over set? Flush vs. higher flush? AA vs. KK?

If not, then I would say that is even more 'circumstantial' evidence of superusing.

So you think any reputable site would just auto-ban for any complaint. Or is it more likely that they did a preliminary investigation and then decided to lock the accounts in question and dig deeper?


Edit: Not saying the site is legit, seems a little shady imo

That^.

A total open evaluation of his database with all the results posted in their entirety.

Another reasonable sample size vs the villains from a total stranger showing the same aberrations would go along way towards proving your case.

So clliffs:

After playing about 2500 hu hands of 2/4-5/10 vs several guys on play2b that all seemed to play bizarrely and similarly I get the overwhelming feeling that they can see my cards. They essentially play me perfectly anytime they are betting.

I post here, not really expecting much to happen, but just to warn people of my suspicions and to have them keep an eye out. I have no hand histories as I was playing through a browser that didn't save them.

Binbs chimes in that he has felt the same way about several players and he proceeds to name the same guys I had played with despite me not mentioning any details in the first post. At this point you can just say "of course the guy that's chiming in is the guy that has had a similar experience. Maybe these guys that play oddly are just fairly decent and running well and we're hearing from two guys that are pissed about it"

Binbs actually has hand histories bc he was playing on a different skin that saves them. He sends me those and while no hands that get to showdown are telling of superusers at all, the stats that show up are bordering on impossible and completely confirming what I felt from my sessions. Winning 626 of the 676 they raised pf, 90 of the 93 hands they bet turn, 56 out of 56 rivers that they bet, 117/122 hands that they 3b, 12/12 hands 4b etc. At this point, maybe there is a shadow of doubt (I don't think so personally).

A few others chime in that they had felt similarly(no one has responded to the contrary) but the only other person we knew of that had played a lot of hands at the same stakes and tables was a guy named iwinnomore. Neither Bin or I know the guy or how to get in touch with him so we just spam threads and start threads searching for him.

Iwinnomore shows up and shows conversations that he has already had about feeling the exact same way about the same guys. He also brings the new information that they all log in and out at the same time.

Besides his post here we still haven't made contact. Hopefully he will have some more hand histories so we can be sure as to all 5 of the named players but I don't see how anyone can argue that there is even a chance that there is not 1 or more superusers that have been playing on Play2B.

The only question now is "How does Play2B respond?"

Pretty much sums its up.

Only thing to add is that Play2B has already been alerted about this and are supposedly looking into it. Ive sent them an email requesting an update on the situation.

Will most likely get some sort of reply after the weekend.

Still trying to get in touch with iwinnomore. He hasnt emailed me yet. I got a mod to send him an email with my contact information. Hopefully he was saving hands too, so then we will have more information to work with.

The stats druidfluid has provided basically prove that the players in question had access to additional information – most likely the hole cards of all or some of their opponents. It is virtually impossible to explain those deviations with variance.

Obviously this only holds true if there was no accidental cherry-picking when compiling those stats.

As binbs demonstrated the hand histories provided are defective to some extend. At the very least they do not record the hole cards exactly. This makes investigating the issue slightly more difficult as one also has to deal with erroneous hand histories.

Also, right now we only have druidfluids evaluation and one stats-screenshot provided by binbs. It would be helpful to upload *all* available hand histories to some public repository. I'd like to take a look at them.

10 days ago play2b suspended 5 accounts but has not returned with any updates since. Although right now a lot hints to the possibility that something shady is going on with the developer (B.P. SYS) or the operator (Beproga Ltd. and Goalgaming Ltd.), there is also the possibility that the alleged superusers had access to their opponents hole cards via some 3rd party software (e.g. a trojan).

Right now it's up to play2b to provide some details on their investigation.

How do I go about making these hand histories public? I guess I can just export them and zip them up.

What then?

Easiest way would be to upload the zip file to dropbox or another free file hosting provider.

Finally got in contact with iwinnomroe and got his hands.

NOTE: These are all HEM2 format now I believe. Partypoker HH format. Not sure if you can import them into pokertracker but you could try.

My hands:

https://mega.co.nz/#!YckmGBBA!ZRHgxR...9wpoVO23tBzhOk


iwinnomore hands: (EDIT: converted HHs)

https://mega.co.nz/#!EQdwgCqI!AOzSyT...hntnRyNh3JV0bw




Someone download this and overanalyze the **** outta these hands so we can get some answers please.

First file is not available, second file works.

Unfortunately many hand histories contain errors (hole cards not matching, bet / pot sizing not matching, betting sequences make no sense) which makes analyzing them quite tedious.

Ill try again.

my hands: https://mega.co.nz/#!EdtRUS5Y!MUqGHg...GYzp7K5Yw8PPn0

Yeah I got 2400+ import errors and some of the hands I'm looking at are not making sense from either opponent but so far as far as filtered stats:

Bet river=79/83 with one split
bet flop=178/234
raised 4b=8/9
raised 3b= lost 4 out of 21 in 3 of those iwinnomore shoved trash but in one of them villain raised vs kk with TJ. They did end up filling up a boat but this is kind of a counter example...

I dunno this sample is looking similar but not near as convincing as Bins. 2400 import errors though so I don't really know what hands those are affecting and with how sometimes they show you the wrong hole cards its hard to say whats going on for sure. I'll try to look it over more later.

So I forgot to mention Iwinnomore's sample size (4548) but I'm not sure how the import errors factor in. Here's some more filters

3b- 178/212

raised flop- 12/14 w 1 split pot

raised turn- 118/125 and 1 split

called turn- 9/11 w 1 split (in one of these we know opponent rivered flush. In the other a 4 flush hit and it was folded be we don't know cards)

called river- 5/5

Edit to the previous bet flop stat. When I filter it by flop actions+bet I now get 258/284 and 1 split.

ALSO edit to the bet river stat from previous post. I looked through them and they actually only lost 2 of the 83. For some reason it was showing up as a loss but when you replay it, they bet, and iwinnomore or other opponent folds.

Anyone else have a chance to do analysis? Iwinnomore hit me up on Skype when you get a chance. I just got your contact from Binbs.

So basically this confirms more of the same. I spoke to iwinnomore and he basically agrees that he got cheated. His skype convos were before this thread was even opened I believe(altho not 100% sure).

Im playing lower levels on play2b, and im pretty sure the same things is happening there.

I'm an idiot. I read the hand wrong and it was Iwinnomore w/ TJ not villain so we still have no examples of a 4b vs a stronger hand of our 33 4b hands (save possibly two hands where their opponent came over the top w/ trash which assumedly was better than their trash and they folded) . The hand IS odd (for a superuser) though as they got it in on the flop when the TJ hit trips. This is the first example of getting it in on a cooler like this that I've seen in the 7k+ hands now but it is not the first example of doing things that a superuser "at full force" would do. We do already assume that they would be making at least some attempt not to be getting caught if they were superusing though.

One thing that we've talked about is their relative tightness pf. If they are superusers, and I still have little to no doubt, then there are a few different possibilities.
1. They are attempting to not make it obvious and trying to play like they think normal players do.

2. They are generally only getting involved in dominating situations. This is not to say that they are only waiting for super premium hands bc that has definitely not been the case.

3. They don't always have access to extra information and generally only play when they do. This probably sounds weird and I wouldn't really have considered it if it weren't for the sporadic glitchiness of the hand histories and hand histories occasionally showing whole cards when their has been no showdown.

Anyway, Ill try to get all of the combined stats together soon.

Hi, got any more hands for us vs villains?