I am curious to hear stories of anyone who has played on kings club, a private web based site that is similar to PPP in that agents credit your account and you go through them in order to play.

I have played this site for a while now and feel like it is completely bogus in many ways. I won't go into alot of detail but the cliffs would look something like this:

1) this is a web based poker site, not an app, therefore it is theoretically more vulnerable to hacks, threats, possible hold cards exposed, superusers, etc...
2) the rake is high and it seems the biggest fish never go broke; clearly some fish have $$ and can afford to lose but would they really keep playing if they never win? I have witnessed at least 2 players (the entire player pool on average is 95-120 players) lose 4-6k per day for many days in a row....this is feasible, but to me very unlikely given the very small player pool
3) In mandatory run it twice games, the number of pots that are chopped is insanely high relative to equities when the money goes in. Furthermore, these chops typically favor the fish
4) It very much feels like the site is designed to make sure none of the players go totally broke and the board run outs once the money go in seems to back up this idea...With a small player pool and the profits coming from rake, it probably wouldn't benefit many if only the best pros made money and the fish all busted (which would logically happen over time in higher stakes PLO, Big O type games)....

If I felt I had simply taken a few bad beats or was running bad, I would not bring this issue up - but what I have seen on here defies logic (and math) repeatedly...

I have spoken to a few solid poker pro friends who have also played the site and none of them have come close to winning - they also have raised questions about the runouts and number of chopped pots in the mixed games. Obv chopped pots are standard, but it seems 85%+ are chopped...even when the equities run something like 90/10...

Just curious if anyone wants to share anything here- I would advise everyone to steer clear of this site as there is very little info out there on it and of all the sites I've played (most of them), this is by far the most suspect.

I have had a different experience on kingsclub

Most of the action is 30/60 for limit games and 2/5 w an ante or 5/10 w 4 ante for big bet games. From what I’ve seen and heard and the players I’ve talked to, the higher limit games are made up of live pros and some live recs and poor players. Sone pros are prob HS live players who play much higher live than the capped stakes of 30/60 limit and 5/10 (like some of them play in Bobby’s room for example). I don’t think I can beat many of the Bobby’s Room types, but some people have and they’ve told me they’ve been paid. I’d be curious to know of anyone who hasn’t been paid cuz that was my main concern when I signed up.

These agent sites typically don’t have a long shelf life but this by far the best online room that I have access to, as a US player. I think it will last longer as a result. The rake is higher than the bot infested sites filled w low- high stakes cheating and collusion but the trade off is that the games on Kings are much softer (even at the highest stakes of 30/60 u will see 2 fish, 3 pros, and an avg rec at a an avg full 6m table).

The proof in the pudding from my POV is that I personally know players who have both won and lost big - and they’ve all paid or been paid from what they tell me. Would a net 200k winner in the last 6-7 months who has had -30k weeks, qualify as a big winner?

When the recs who are used to playing 10k PLO or 400/800 mix, they don’t seem to have many qualms blasting off at 1/10th the stakes. Losing 5k in a day (or 2.5 full buyins in the big bet games and less than 90 bets in a limit game) might be smaller than the avg pot in their live games.

Not sure you understand what “player pool” means. I don’t think the 95-120 players that are online/playing at any given time make up the entirety of the player pool. Unless the entirety of the player pool is logged on 24 hrs/day.

“I have played this site for a while now and feel it is bogus in many ways”
“It very much feels like the site is designed to make sure none of the players go totally broke”
“I have spoken to a few solid poker pro friends and none of them have come close to winning”
“Furthermore these chops typically favor the fish” - ThomasSmith post 1

It was a valiant effort you’ve put forth here, Thomas. I agree that something is definitely suspect. See you at the tables?

Yes I realize some of the BR’s players play here. I have seen PLO hands.

And perhaps player pool was poor wording. During the peak times there’s 90-120 players so the pool would be higher but not a ton higher imo. I always see the same players and have extensive notes on them.

I never raised any issues about being paid. That’s actually the last thing I’m worried about. It’s just like PPP in that regard. If you have a good agent you’ll always be paid.

From my POV I just wanted to hear that some players are clear cut winners. You nit picking my wording isn’t overly constructive. It can clear up a detail or two about the site, but the point of the post was to gather peoples experiences who ideally are your run of the mill players (that could be a reg, a pro, whtever - preferably people not affiliated with the site).

It seems like your post is 90% positive propaganda for the site rather than making a meaningful contribution. My concerns are related to the legitimacy of the hands being played, the implications of a web based browser over an app, and how, of the pros I’ve spoken to (all very solid live game winners), none have come close to winning and every single player has mentioned the same types of issues I mentioned about with respect to how hands play out.

I’ve easily played over 100k hands of poker in my lifetime and I am pretty sure I can differentiate between running bad and what I’m seeing on King’s Club.

Was it “positive propaganda” or facts and evidence that disputed your “feelings”?

Why make a new account to post? Everything I posted as fact is just that - the facts. I stand behind my unblemished rep in the gambling world and don’t have to hide from anybody or anything.

Every post on 2p2 is made w an objective in mind - whether it’s to get some laughs in bbv, find out when a casino is opening, or to improve one’s game. The reason I called you out is bc you’re conclusions were frankly, ridiculous. What was your agenda in posting? Hmmm lol.

You asked for feedback from a player. Not only am I a player, but I know so many players on the site that I basically did you a favor by providing you with lots of what you were requesting - info wrt to the site from someone who might be a hell of a lot more familiar with the site (and agent sites in general) than most posters. I’m not looking for a thank you, but I’d imagine all the people lurking appreciate a detailed review of the site that corrects some of the falsehoods you put forth. I have an agenda too - to support a site that I play and make money on. I don’t want your post (that belongs in the rigged thread) to kill my action at the tables, by spreading false information. So I guess we can agree to disagree on the value of my post

Do you realize how you look when you refer to the 100k hands you’ve played lifetime? Many serious online grienders play that much volume every month or two. 1mm hands/yr. Maybe I should apologize for my aggressive tone, as it’s clear you are naive as to the effects of variance (and online poker in general) if you’re referring to a LIFETIME 100k sample as if what was anything close to significant. There’s no monster under the bed. If you really stood behind your “feelings” you would’ve posted under your real account. Do that and you will certainly receive an apology from me. Until then, everybody reading our exchange understands you are a troll. Gg ul

welcome to the forums!

i personally know three pros who win elsewhere (in live poker and on other online poker sites) and are also winning solidly on kings, if that helps any. i also know two or three pros who are about breakeven on kings, and two or three others who are down so far.

plo8 is a very chop (or split)-heavy game anywhere, but i don't know the exact longrun %s and whether they are higher/lower on kings compared to elsewhere. many of the kings plo/plo8 tables also run it twice which will increase the number of chopped/split pots.

i agree that the plo and plo8 rakes are high. i've also seen some players dump heavily day after day - i tend to think this is a little more likely on credit-based sites as it's easier for an agent to load/reload some numbers in a player's account as opposed to depositing onto the site or finding enough funds to transfer them in.

disclaimer: i affiliate for the site, as well as play there (same sn as here - bigbadbabar), and i wouldn't refer people to the site or play there myself if i felt like anything was off.

What did I say that was patently false? Instead of player pool I should have said “at peak times there’s is roughly 100-120 players”

My objective was very simple; I want opinions of people who play there who aren’t directly affiliated with the site. As simple as that. If 15 normal people replied and 14/15 said they felt everything was fine, it would be 14 people who say they can win which is 14 more than I’ve heard of.

Also, if you’re at all qualified to touch on the subject of a web based site versus an app would love to hear that.

And my “feelings” are more Intuition based on hh’s which I have saved.

Sure variance can rear it’s ugly head in online poker but this to me is something different.

The 100k number was arbitrary. The point was I’ve seen a lot of hands.

This is def more the type of responses I was looking for. Thank you for your replies. You make good points on a credit based system.

I am willing to admit I could be totally wrong and I am not saying anything Is def rigged - I merely want to gather facts

just wanted to add that the pros i mentioned are primarily mix players - i don't have much insight into the plo games/ecosystem. i have seen the 5/10/4 get super deep and so i imagine the swings are huge.

i definitely agree that people should be cautious about online poker these days, whether it's on a website, app, or software.

I will readily admit I have not played the 5/10 PLO so I cannot speak to that game.

The action overall is incredible. I just wonder if it’s too incredible.

Anyway, thanks for the input and maybe some other players will chime in.

Any updates, reviews from recent ( 2019 ). Looking for low, medium stakes Mixed Games.

there's good traffic (usually a table or two running at each stake) of 4/8 8/16 15/30 30/60 mix. anything from horse to bbbt and then there are some wild mixes with 10 or 20 limit games in em. there are also a couple mixes w/both limit and big bet games in em.

I’ve quit this site twice because I felt the results were too insane to be real, but the more I study draw games the more I realize I had no clue how to play and that was why I wasn’t winning. Also, it’s not like my sample size was huge.

However...

Here’s a hand that makes no sense to me. I realize people are capable of playing really bad but...

2-7 Razz

I complete with 62-5 and a player named GambleGamble raises with an 8 up. I raise, he raises, and I raise again.

62-5A
xx-82

He bets I call

62-5AT
xx-82Q

He bets I raise he raises I call

62-5ATQ
xx-82Q7

He bets I call

I catch a 4 on 7th and call again.

This is his hand (and AFAIK, Kings shows the cards in the order they are dealt):

33-82Q7-5

On 5th street I figure he pairs the 2 a lot when he’s willing to go 5 bets on 3rd with an 8 up...

Can anyone explain why someone would put 5-bets in on 3rd with an 8 up and a pair in the hole? It’s not like regular Stud 8 is in this mix, so he shouldn’t be confused about what game it is. Surely, by 5th he knows what game it is? But now he’s 3-betting when he doesn’t even have a made queen yet?

This is beyond playing bad. It’s inconceivable really. I’ve had stuff like this happen a few times and it really makes you wonder if some of these players know what cards are coming? I can’t think of any logical reason he would play his hand this way.

He doesn't know how to play? A few drinks, sat at wrong table? A whale that likes to bully and bluff?

It's more logical to assume that the downcards aren't shown in the order you think they are at showdown and he started with (53)8 and had you boardlocked from 4th on.

i'm pretty sure the downcards are scrambled at showdown, but i'm not 100% on that. i'd encourage you to ask your agent to check w/kings and get the scoop!

i'm finding the mixed games curve to be fairly steep too, but it's a lot of fun!

ps. i will say that i definitely get the game completely wrong from time to time (like dramaha vs dramaha 2-7) so there's prob a small, but non-zero, chance that that was happening.

good luck on there!

I’ve always assumed the cards were shown in order but it would make a lot more sense if they aren’t. I guess it makes sense that they would scramble them since in real life you wouldn’t have that information either.

I’ve seen some weird things on Kings that made me wonder but I came back again because I think my perception was faulty. I just think I combined playing really bad in some of the games with running really bad overall in a sample that’s not even 250 hours yet.

I have a similar sample size in live play and my results have been the exact opposite so I think that has clouded my judgement but the more I read Dylan’s book the more I’m like “ohhhhh... I actually just suck.” It also makes sense that the average player on Kings is probably way better than the average 20/40 Mix player.

I’d be putting him on (34)82 once he goes bananas on 5th; 2-7 td equivalent is 2348x after 1st draw - and the antes seem to drive more action in this version of 2-7, compared to blinds ime. Also, if he happens to possibly put most of his volume in at 30/60 and this was a smaller game, perhaps the SN don’t lie.

There’s a lot of good players who are playing newer variants for the first time and while they may play smaller while learning newer games, they might vpip more, and w more aggression, in order to get more reps in.

The fairly new $1.50/3 limit stake or the 4/8 is the cheapest opportunity to learn many of these variants. I’ve met some nl/plo players who have always wanted to learn mix, but the stakes in live games were usually too high for them to change up their routine. It’s a pretty big jump from NLHE to Archie.

After they see how little of a roll they need to keep on the site to get a lot of volume in and “catch up” to the live players, many of them decide it’s the optimal time to broaden their horizons. Whether they donate or become savants, it’s a step in the right direction for (online) poker imo, anytime someone becomes comfortable playing a new game

I really, really want to play on this site because I absolutely love playing mix games, but I just can't justify it. Something doesn't feel right. I've tried three times now.

-My sample size isn't huge. I've certainly had disastrous live stretches over similar live samples.

-The players on this site might all be mostly really good.

-Maybe, despite all the studying I've done, I just suck and I've been getting lucky when I play live. Maybe.

But I'm losing at 2.36 BB/hr on Kings and I rarely play a session where it seems like one or two players at the table can't see my cards. I'm not saying that's what is happening, but it sure feels that way. I highly doubt some of these dudes are so good that they are completely incapable of ever making a mistake against me. They call when I'm bluffing. They ALWAYS lead when I miss in the drawing games, even if they were a card behind. If I'm pat, they check-raise instead and I end up calling down and losing because when I play draw games it is basically impossible to make a hand and everyone else is pat every hand, so they have to be bluffing some of the time, right? No. They are never bluffing. Not when I call.

I kept note of how often I lost when I started with a pat Badugi over this last stretch and I started with a pat Badugi sixteen times and I won with one of them. Yes, most of these hands are pat Jacks or worse, but 1 for 16? I thought making Badugis was hard? And how is it possible that 15 out of 15 times they made a better Badugi? Seems like at least one of those times they would make a pat queen on the river and lose to whatever I had, but no.

The other game that has been insane is 2-7 Triple Draw. I can't ever make a hand. My completion of an 8 or better has to be less than 10% over the last week or so and I'm using starting hand guidelines straight out of Dylan Linde's book, so it's not like I'm in there drawing rough all the time. Meanwhile, my opponents make a pat hand every time. They never miss. I mean... sure... it could be variance... it could be. I'm obviously not running good. But all my various opponents in every single hand are running at the opposite end of the spectrum? It doesn't matter who they are. And as I noted earlier, sometimes I call down JUST TO SEE. But they always have it when I do that. Maybe my timing is just uncannily bad? Maybe.

I've gone about three straight 2-7 sessions where I basically never win a hand. That's not too crazy, but how it happens is what is crazy. No one ever misses a bet or raise when I'm drawing. But in my last session, I get dealt a pat 7 and suddenly no one wants to play. Folded to my big blind. Then, in my last hand that I will ever play on this site, I make a #3 on the last draw against a pat hand and, surprise!, it's no good.

Also, while that atrocious 2-7 session was going on, I was playing in a full 8/16 Crazy Mix game and all five of my opponents sit out at the same time. I'm the only active player. I have no idea what to make of that, but it doesn't make me feel good.

I know a good amount of people that are playing or have played on this site, some of them elite players, and no one that I know knows a single person that is winning in the mix games on this site. Not one. Anyone I know personally is getting CRUSHED. No one is losing... we are all getting our faces smashed in.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist and I always LOL at people that claim online poker is rigged, so it pains me to possibly add myself to that crowd. But I'm a seasoned vet. I've been playing full time hours for 8+ years and professionally for 3 years now. My win rate in live mixed games is 1.86 BB/hr life time. I've been through stretches of real life poker that have been so bad they seemed like they couldn't possibly be real, so this kind of run isn't unheard of. It's the way it happens and the fact that it's happened to everyone I know that is the problem.

I don't want to quit the site because I really want to play, but at some point, I have to admit that I either suck or I'm being scammed and nothing in my poker history would leave me to believe that I'm the problem.

I was at the table you're talking about if that was today, and the reason we sat out was a specific player (not you). That game was pretty juicy tho to be honest, would've loved to keep playing.

Other than that, yeah most regs are pretty good so you end up waiting for the fish to make games run.

For what it is worth, I've been winning on the site and I'm most certainly not cheating, but don't expect to just jump into any game and be profitable there. It takes some time to figure out who you're there for.

I'm winning, but over a very insignificant sample size. I know 4 or 5 people who play on the site who are winning (or at least claim to be winning) long term. They are all strong mix players. Two of these guys were ready to switch to a different site a few months ago for affiliate reasons, so logically they wouldn't do that if they were superusing on the site.

I’m willing to concede I might be below average on the site, maybe even at the lower stakes, but just because players are better than me doesn’t mean that they should never make a mistake or miss a draw against me.

Losing is one thing. Losing almost every pot I play almost every session I play and having my opponents react to my actions like they always know exactly what I have is another thing.

Something else I didn’t mention in my last post but seems relevant: on the rare occasions where I’m having a decent session, the games almost always crumble and break. So when I’m losing, the players stick around and give me the opportunity to keep losing, but when I’m doing well, the game breaks.

I guess it doesn’t matter if there’s something shady going on, or if I’m actually terrible, or if players are bumhunting me... all of these things seem like valid reasons to quit the site.

It’s just weird that when I play these same games in a live environment, people actually miss their draws and my good hands win most of the time, but on Kings I feel like I’m being set up to lose the maximum on almost every pot that I play. It seems like I should go on a decent run once in a while, but it never happens.



I’ve never had a graph even remotely close to looking like this before.

After reading Dylan’s book, I realized I was playing pretty bad in a lot of the draw games, so I decided to give it one more chance. To come back after making all the appropriate adjustments, literally playing with the book open on my desk, and still have the exact same results and all the same bullshit keep happening... I give up.

sup DK - i sent you a PM - sorry you're running poorly

were you able to reach your affiliate to find out if cards are scrambled at sd or not?

i personally know several strong mix players (who win in live mix games over big samples) who are also winning in the mix games on kings. some of them are signed up on my affiliate and some of them are not. happy to put you in touch with some of them if you like. i expect you know some of them personally or that we perhaps have friends in common, since the limit poker community is pretty small.

i think with more research you'll find that your badugi thought process is not optimal, so that's an easy enough fix. when i first started playing badugi i viewed it the same way that i think you are viewing it now. i've found that i do better playing in mixes (like HORSEBT) where i feel comfy with most of the games and am only new to a few. if i were to sit circus mix or crazy mix or whatever i wouldn't expect to win most of the time, since the majority of those games are new to me.

why not sit 1.5/3 or 4/8, game select more tightly, and focus on learning just one or two new games at a time? as a lhe player i'd expect you could get HT or something going, or HOE, and you could get good reps in that way in a more comfortable environment.

It's impossible to say if you're playing well or poorly, because you've got to admit when we talk about our own sessions, it's always exaggerated. You talk about playing with a book open...are you just learning these games? What stakes are you sitting? If you aren't strong in a lot of the games and are sitting at 15/30 or 30/60, then I can imagine it would feel like you're just running horribly. Do you have any hhs or recordings of your play?

Yeah in badugi you don’t want to really play pat Qs or Kd unless in late position and even then it’s tough, cuz if it goes 1-pat and you get xr you’re almost certainly beat, but the standard seems to be that players grit their teeth and call down anyways.

I’d concur w BBB that there’s players who are up pretty big overall and some who have a good WR at the midstskes, like one of my players who has posted in the thread. A lot of them play pretty big live and it can be hard to tell if the guy playing 8/16 or 15/30 crushes 80/160 live or if he’s a rec who just enjoys playing some of the fun variants. So game selection is pretty important, which isn’t much different than most online sites or bigger live games I guess

My sample size isn’t significant enough for me to be publicly complaining and I’m already embarrassed I posted anything. I don’t think I’m an expert at any of the games, but I think I’m adept at some of them and at least decent at the others, although I’m starting to think I might be the worst 2-7 TD player in the world.