fairly large.. Probably large enough that if the opinion was weighed on the rake paid, anti-shortstackers wont stand a chance

Cool. There's also a rule against taking money off the table. If you think that table hopping to keep your stack at 20bb is substantially different than just outright taking it off the table, then don't bother telling me about it, because you'd be wrong.

The only reason ratholing is clearly against the T&C of sites is because NOBODY could have thought that it would come to this. It's not our fault that some people shortstack for a living; it's a pretty pathetic existence. Either learn to play poker (shortstacking isn't poker) or get a job.

Some of us make a living actually playing poker, is it fair that dim witted people can exploit a flaw in the online game to ensure that no matter how we adjust we are losing money? If we choose to adjust to the shortstack, we lose money versus 100bb stacks. If we choose to adjust to 100bb stacks, we lose money to shortstackers. LOL. And keep in mind that the player causing this situation has ZERO skills at poker. Yes, that seems very ethical.

Please don't try to take the moral high ground. The very fact that you shortstack negates any argument you may have.

Why don't you be honest and say the truth: You are just not smart enough to be a winning poker player without exploiting the system and if you don't have the intelligence to beat a game, you basically have a zero chance of succeeding at a real job that requires more than a high school GED.

Regardless, best of luck to you though.

Also, you never answered the question regarding playing on 20bb only tables...

The point is there are options.. Option to buy-into 50bb min-buyin tables.
A set of tables where you can buy-in for anywhere between 20-100
A set of tables where you'll have to buy-in for a minimum of atleast 50bb.



The best thing all you anti-short stackers can do for yourself is to play exclusively on 50bb min buy-in tables, thus making it more popular. Also, maybe request pokerstars to not have an option to filter out between regular tables and 50bb tables, and thus if 50bb tables outnumber 20bb tables the chances are that bad players who want to buy-in for full will play more and more on 50bb tables..!

and please, the talk about ethics and integrity is bs, since all you anti-SS-ers should only be playing on 50bb tables if that is supposedly how integrity of poker is to be maintained...!

Again you are correct.

However, the rules and structures of games evolve in order to maintain a product those in charge see as ideal. For example, the NCAA now has a shot clock for basketball. Just passing the ball without trying to score was not against the rules, until some teams used that fact to the point of exploitation. Therefore the rules changed, because the NCAA believed the game of basketball should be about scoring and playing defense not keep the ball away from the other guy.

Yes. But what is that purpose? There is certainly much room for disagreement about why minimum buyins were initially chosen.

No.

No.

omg best ever. love the suicide methods tab LOL

effuno, stop with the special tables are good for them but bad for us bit. It's stupid. Don't worry, you'll have plenty of choice with the new structures. The best thing you can do for yourself is to play exclusively on shallow tables.

lol@ 'succeeding at real job' comment.. !

As a short stacker, playing vs 20bb can be done because there will still be bad players buying in for 20bb.. This is similar to 100bb tables where you get to exploit bad players who buy-in for 100bb.. Obv, your winrate will be higher, but we can play more tables effectively.. !


btw, having said all this, why do you even chose to play with SS-ers when you could be happily battling for supremacy vs the supposedly more intelligent players on 50bb min buy-in tables ?


How about pokerstars make three sets of tables
1) 20bb min buy-in, 50bb max buy-in
2) 5bb min buy-in, 100bb max buy-in
3) 100bb min buy-in, unlimited max buy-in..!!

3rd set of tables would be the one playing what is 'real poker' as per your definition..! Which one do you think will be more popular ?

Online Poker Business Model: Lets play follow the money.

1. The money comes from new deposits, either by new or existing accounts.
2. The money is then split between the site(rake) and players with a positive winrate.
3. The site then redistributes a portion of the money back the players as a reward for playing their site.
4. Without new deposits the money will eventually dry up.

Therefore there are only 2 types of players that sites are concerned with:

1. Players who deposit.
2. Players who make the games unenjoyable, thus preventing players who deposit from depositing again.
The sites do a lot towards making the games fun, by not allowing profanity, abuse, solicitation, or
non english in the chat, and by approving only appropriate images for your avatar. They also do
their best to eliminate cheating, multi accounting, botting, and illegal software.

So the sites have the option of allowing Shortstack ratholers or not. Clearly they do not deposit, and if
they have a negative winrate or are breaking even they are essentially paid by the site.

Casual Players play primarily for money, fun, and as a social activity. We can eliminate social activity
for why Casual Players deposit and play online, so it must be for fun or money.

Now lets review why Shortstack Ratholers make the games unenjoyable for casual players:

1. Simple math tells us that SS'ers limit the amount of decisions per hand by 50-75%, this definately
limits the enjoyment for a casual player, making the game less enjoyable.

2. Psychology tells us that any player naturally creates 'enemies' at any competitive event. We strive to
compete with these 'enemies', especially after they have beaten us before. It is the nature of competition.
A pro poker player should have learned to limit these feelings, but the casual player has not, they want
revenge. This is completely taken away from them when the SS'er leaves the table after winning a hand
against them. This makes the game less enjoyable for the casual player, because now they are frustrated
because they can no longer get their revenge.

3. Fact is that all casinos love a big winner, it brings more people to their casino. This also applies
here. Because SS'ers have a built in mathematical advantage, you may even consider them to be like the house,
they limit the number of winners. Especially the casual player who has limited knowledge of preflop ranges.
This makes the games less enjoyable for the casual player, as there are now less who are winning.

4. Because of this 'House Edge' that SSer's have over the general player pool, online poker in its current
state will become more like playing roulette or craps or even slots. The casual players will stand no chance
long term thus making them fewer and fewer. When they can no longer play with others on their level, the
game will become less enjoyable.


Because of the Online Poker Business Model, I wear my Poker Stars fleece EVERYWHERE. As a player with a
positive winrate, Poker Stars is essentially my business partner. I have gotten into several discussions
with numerous people over the years about online poker. I have changed many minds about it, and I have given
help numerous times about how to deposit. If changes are not made I will be limiting my play their,
switching to FTP, and wearing their gear and promoting them as my new business partner.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

If you had a brain, you would have realized that other sites MIGHT follow after Full Tilt made there move; but since you are shortstacking, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and cut you some slack. You shouldn't have put all your eggs in the shortstacking basket. Live and learn right?

I stayed on Stars because I was told my reps that they were actively discussing the possibility of following FTP and Party. I am way ahead of pace for SNE and will be mixing in FTP next month. If they don't make the changes, I'll just weed out PokerStars in April. If they do eliminate the current plague festering in Stars, I'll weed out Full Tilt. You see, that's the difference here. You need to play 20bb to make a meager living and your options are dwindling. I can just move sites and probably make more since I can game select without having to worry about shortstackers on other sites.

Life is good for me right now

Taking money off the table is not allowed by the rules of the game. One being cheating makes it a pretty big difference, no?

Anyway there's no sense in arguing with you on this since neither of us is changing his mind and my original comments were about the way the game was meant to be played. And the way it's meant to be played is simply, by the rules.

I haven't seen anyone asking for SS'ers to be banned for breaking the rules. What is being asked is that PokerStars change their rules because a large qty of people are exploiting an aspect of the game structure to the point of making the games not enjoyable.

How about you figure out how to beat an EASY game without exploiting flaws in the system. If you can't, they how about having a talk with your parents about the lousy genetics they gave you?

I don't play with shortstackers. I don't really see your point. Whatever, talking with shortstackers is only one step higher than talking to a ******. Good luck in life; I hope Stars will let you guys have 200bb only tables because otherwise you are pretty screwed. Keep fighting the good fight though.

Sweet. We needed another thread where pros and cons of shortstacking is discussed endlessly.

No. If you choose to adjust to 20bb stacks you make less money vs 100bb stacks. And of course since you play professionally you wouldn't be in the game if you didn't think you could make money there. Shortstackers aren't crushing your bankroll, they're reducing your profitability. You already have a solution, play 50bb tables. But you go where the fish go and since they don't care what table they're sitting at, that means that you have to play with shortstackers some of the time. Edit: If you want to be able to choose the best games at any given time.

The survey Stars sent out should be interesting because up to this point I've hardly heard recreational players getting super up in arms about playing against 20bb stacks. Recreational players don't really care, they're by definition there to have fun and you're there to leech off that and we're there to leech off you. The difference is that you think you have some right not to be leeched off of.

20bb min has a different rule set than 50bb min. The idea that both games should play the same is ridiculous.

Why do you believe that you know what affects the enjoyment of casual players? Some get a thrill out of bullying the table, some of them want to limp and see cheap flops without being iso-raised, etc who are we to assume we know exactly what they want?

Yeah its so absurd to think that there won't be drastic rule changes in the middle of a year long promotion. Would you be saying the same thing to every full stacked grinder living month to month if the DOJ seized a processor tomorrow and the sites all pulled out of the US?

I don't know dick about the NCAA. But I do know that the NFL has changed rules regarding pass interference recently. And they did not make those changes mid season.

But those same people have the option of playing exclusively in games with a min buyin higher than FTP has implemented. The fact that they're still complaining just tells me their enjoyment comes from money rather than the game.

I've said it before in another thread. Stars is a business and should do what they believe will make them the most money. It's probably not in their best interest to reduce the player pool while keeping the overall flow of money in vs money out about the same. As a short/fullstacker I think it's best for me monetarily to have the option of playing 20bb or 100bb deep on a given table. As a fullstacker it's best for you to to have stack sizes fairly homogenized. The argument shouldn't be about the spirit of the game, enjoyment for player x, or mathematics of poker it should be about what decision is best for Stars' bottom line.

That's the whole problem with your argument. Obviously players as good as Steel would love the notion that there could be a poker world where the horrendous players you dream of are constantly buying in for 100-500 BB stacks at a time. Unfortunately, except for some particular casinos, cash games do not work that way.

We realize the fact that the most popular set of tables would be the 5bb-100BB max tables because of the idea that the horrendous players never consider the implications that the size of their stack plays in a game, (unfortunately this is about the ONLY thing that short stackers have to take into consideration).

I think Steel put it best with the example of the idea that 100BB players are trying to do their best against other 100BB stacks while also keeping an eye out for short stackers, or conversely when a 100BB stack is trying to effectively play against a 20BB stack, another 100BB stack may also butt in the way which disrupts everything as well. Short stackers simply do not have to deal with this disadvantage due to the structures of the games, so who is it unfair to again? To me it seems that SS'ers are manipulating the site by taking advantage of playing tons and tons of small pots with large rake, generally with a low tolerance of variance and most importantly taking advantage of the site's reward system.

I've never truly agreed with the ethics (if we can call it that at this point of the thread) of short stacking. I would probably feel better being a losing player keeping different life options in mind, than being a SS'er who barely scrapes by month to month taking advantage of the fact that the sounds you donate to websites you'd be getting a decent % of it back. Sadly it's pokerstars that gets the last laugh when it comes down to rake, and SS'ers are probably their #1 largest demographic of players donating to rake (volume non negotiable, a SS = an SS, good or bad). So much so, that if I were the website owner looking out for the best interests of my shareholders, then I wouldn't want to get rid of all the SS'ers either, which leads me to believe that SS'ers may always be a part of the biggest sites because of these flaws in the system.

any proficient fullstacked reg can learn how to shortstack with a chart in a day.
any shortstack could not learn how to fullstack in a day.
these are facts. so regardless of how long obtaining the 'skills': "learning, adjusting hand-reading, 'math'" of short stacking takes however long that is, multiply it by 10 and maybe you can learn how to play a full stack.
100BB skills translate to short stack skills because they are poker skills.
SS strategy is not poker skill, it's taking advantage of the system in place.
it's as if a bonus whore (back in the day when we could) was defending his existence by saying "bonus whoring (while playing breakeven) takes time, effort, adjusting to different sites, and math". no ****! that doesn't justify the existence of the whorer- or the ratholer.

SS'ing isn't real poker, get rid of it asap.

This has been answered over and over and over and over.... I'm sorry you have had to resort to SS'ing. I'm sorry that you will need to find something new to exploit for income. I actually am, but it is going to go away. adjust

You must have missed my post.

I was responding to your argument that shortstackers are ruining the enjoyment you get from the game. The 50bb games are there for you to play. If all you want is to be able to play without shortstacks this should be more than enough. What you actually want is to be able to play against every fish on the site, without shortstacks. This has nothing to do with the enjoyment you get from the game.

For me shortstacking is table selection tool, a tilt control mechanism, and fun. I probably make the majority of my money fullstacking now.

It might be fairly easy to become breakeven. It's fairly hard to be a winner shortstacking. Many fullstacked regs have made the switch and been unsuccessful.

Ok despite being a shortstacker I lolled really hard.

Hey anyone got one of those 100 BB Charts for me? I think I might need it lolollo