Sammy, the shortstackers on this forum have guaranteed that no full stackers care if you get diverted to shallow tables. They relentlessly present 50bb tables as the solution if you don't like playing short. I even think you may have a fair point, but idk, too bad- go play shallow.

But either way, I think fixing the main games by segregating buy ins is too important to wait until next year, even with the VIP program considerations. It's not like you won't be able to play 20bb if you want to.

LOL at bad players moving down and pwning, They are bad players.

Just stop with this already. The 20bb stack is killing the game, end of discussion. Don't believe it? Have a look in ft's lobby and compare it with stars's. This is why I left stars yesterday.

If you want to play allin on the flop, play cap games, period. No one wants to play at a 50nl or 100nl table with 5 shorties, but shorties don't mind it, and will fight tooth and nail to keep it that way.

It's pretty lol to suggest that deep poker isn't real poker, or that ss is real poker. It's four betting rounds, not two, therefore it's obvious how the game is supposed to be played.

While I dont agree with 90% of what Sammykid has said...

He has a point about SNE pursuers being totally screwed if the rules are changed in the middle of the year.

Unfortunately, thats just how the program is designed. Any major change could really pull the rug out from SNE hopefuls after they have had a working system for the first part of the year.



It is a completely different issue - but SNE may need to be a revolving deal (current month + 11 previous months) in order to allow Stars to make changes like this without waiting months. I dont want to de-rail this thread, but it is something that probably should be taken into consideration.


As a side note - I've been on FTP since their change, and my supernova status will probably be gone by April. I'm glad to see changes are being considered.

'Rule' changes for VIP players that you reference only applies to any VIP program changes. Stars would not be changing anything about the VIP program, therefore, your whole argument is a non issue.

Stars needs to make updates/improvements in software/programming/games between Jan 2 and Dec 31st, otherwise it will hinder progress at Stars... and this is a VERY necessary update if they care about their games at all.

why should this affect the sne chase at all if 20bb tables are installed

Don't forget their favorite argument "It's not like we just randomly shove, we've developed a strategy. Learn to adjust."

Funny how when shorties get told to learn to adjust to playing exclusively other shorties, they flip their ****.

raise it up please

I'm not writing here to try to convince the fullstackers, I'm just representing my and others' interests to Stars, and I'm trying to plead for some basic rules of fairness regarding WHEN a change is made if Stars decides one should be made.

Lol at your attempt at legalism.

I'm not saying Stars would be fundamentally violating something they were contractually obligated to uphold -- they can LEGALLY change the buyin whenever they like.

I'm saying it's fundamentally unfair to do so within a calendar year. Stars would be changing something very significant about the pursuit of VIP levels for many, many a player, and if they change it during 2010, they'd be doing so mid-stream. There's something unethical about that, and in no way is it a non-issue, much as you'd like it to be.

You're not talking about what I'm talking about. They should absolutely update their software, they should absolutely improve their programming, they should absolutely introduce different ideas into the market. NONE of this is the least bit unfair. Don't argue against a strawman...I'm saying what they should NOT do is take AWAY a (very common) method of achieving SNE in the middle of the calendar year after dozens, if not hundreds, of players have devoted hundreds of hours to it thinking that the rules would stay the rules.

Why aren't fullstackers happy being segregated at the 50+bb tables?

If they run in large numbers, I don't think SSers will have too much to complain about. It's just a pretty big 'if'.

Nobody knows how changes will affect the games, I'm sure there will be positive and negative impacts for pretty much all players.

Thank God for this thread, btw. I made a solemn oath to myself I'd avoid the other one, now I can actually keep that promise!

By this logic all tables should be limit.

I'm not saying they'd move down and pwn, I'm saying a lot of bad players would LEAVE the limits you want to play.

Stars' games seem to be alive and well with players, over 1.5x as many cash players as FTP as of today. For the 20bb stack to be "killing the game, end of discussion," the games on Stars sure look alive to me.

Again and again, I can say the same thing back to you with "go play the 50bb+ games." Perhaps there should be smallstack games, deepstack games, AND players' choice buyin games.

I play lots of turns and rivers, and it's not "obvious" how the game is "supposed" to be played. You like raising 64s and I don't. Don't act like that makes you morally superior.

Sounds perfect. Poker Stars can create deep tables for those that want to play deep, shallow tables for those wanting to play 20bb stacks. Then raise the buyin on regular no limit for those that just want to play no limit holdem, neither shallow or deep.

Also glad for the update. Praying for 35bb min.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't think most shorties are flipping their **** over this. I think they're just advocating for what they would prefer, nothing wrong with that...

If these changes do happen, some shorties WILL adjust (either by learning to play with a larger buy-in, or learning to beat the shallow games -- I think for most people that will depend on game selection concerns). Other shorties will go broke/quit. The question of how many will be in the latter category might be why this is a tough decision for Stars. Just guessing tho.

FYP

+1 to all of this. I think it's the self-righteousness of anti-SSers that sucks me into these threads more than anything else.

I'm not sure which thread it's in, probably the one where FTP officially announced 35bb mins, but there was a link to a SSS forum where everyone was going nuts and saying hilarious things like "I guess I'll move down in limits and buy in for 100 bbs and crush".

Fairness???? You are playing a game that online poker sites could have never foreseen. You want to talk about fair? There has never been a solution to shortstacking/ratholing since most people would have never foreseen how things would have ended up.

There are shortstackers in MSNL games that have no clue why they have an edge; it's actually pretty funny. Shortstacking is so easy that you don't even have to know what you are doing to breakeven and make good money on rakeback. It's pathetic.

Go get a job.

Regardless, either 1 of 2 things will happen:

(1) Stars ends shortstacking, but creates shallow tables for you guys to have a circle jerk. Would that make you happy? On a table where the max buyin is 20BB, you guys can minraise and shove until your finger falls off.... Would this be acceptable to you.

(2) Stars won't do anything. I'm leaning towards this. Every site is taking to ban shortstacking. If Stars keeps them, they will have a monopoly. LOL. If that happens though, not many people will stay on the site; at least full stackers. Those that do can't really complain anymore and I hope you shortstackers spread like swine flu.

Anything in between is unacceptable and is just a cop out.

LOL, and what you do isn't unethical. STFU. You're pathetic. Yes, it is within the rules of online poker to shortstack, but calling it ethical is kind of embarrassing.

Fair enough, then I'll just say change it now and we can be done with it.

Lol, yeah really.

I don't know about 64s, but I'd say it's pretty obvious that leaving the table every time you win a hand is most definitely not how poker is supposed to be played. That goes for full stacks too.

big bet poker is big bet poker. betting rounds on the flop, turn and river, as well as preflop. the same holds true for limit, although it's limited in the size of the bet. I hope you understand the differences between these games, but as your comment clearly states, you don't. Two completely different games games, two completely different structures. Your logic is flawed, DUCY?

SSers love their irony don't they. So NOW all of a sudden a SSer cares about things being fundamentally unfair and unethical.... but only when it hurts *you*. Of course it's not fundamentally unfair that SSers have an unfair edge they exploit in 20-100bb games vs deepstacks.... of course it's not unethical that they rathole hundreds of tables to maintain and exploit this edge.

I understand your point, but it still falls under a game update that is ending an exploit. Some updates will be much bigger, and affect more people obviously, but it doesn't mean they should all wait till Jan 1st. Your argument would have more merit if you weren't lobbying to keep an unfair exploit. These kinds of updates should be done ASAP and definetely not at the end of the year.

Your above argument also assumes there won't be any shallow or CAP game alternatives for you to play. If shallow or CAP games are added, then Stars would be keeping your 'very common' method of achieving SNE.

I'm not acting like I'm "morally superior" I'm just saying there's a reason 20bb poker isn't allowed live, or on full tilt, and that same reason is why stars is "looking into it". I'd prolly put my roll on the min buyin changing.