You'd likely be shocked because you are wrong. My vpp/hand is quite high because I do no get much fold equity. I do not know if you are familiar with mid/high stakes NL 6max, but people do not fold nowhere near as much as they use to to shortstackers. The game has evolved toward lots of flatting preflop and advanced ways to pot control with a 20bb stack.. I've had full stackers laugh at me when I say that.. but they are the same ones that have huge misconceptions on what short stacking mid/high stakes completely entails.

I am taking advantage of the system sir, the best way I know, just like I would any system in place. And my opinion is that it is very unwise of you not to do the same. Why fix a system that isn't broken? The system in place is clearly fine if I can make over $50k a month every month imo. So why don't you do the same? It's a serious question. Why don't you "be man enough" and admit that you can't do what I do. And you'd rather just point a finger at me and say what I'm doing is exploiting a system and things need to change to make poker better for me because I can't adapt like him.

Wrong. Full stacker misconception.

oh hai kevin, do you remember when i asked you about your FTP ratholing as motherflusher and you replied that you weren't ratholing , you just didn't have enough funds on there and you played full stack on PS (made me laugh since I knew you'd been ratholing both sites for months). are you finally shameless about it or have you decided it's better than being a liar?

Well proper marketing would give the fish all the options at their fingertips. If a fish wants to shove all left and right with me then he can that option. If he wants to play a deep table with you, then he has that option. No one is being forced beyond their will if they know all the options available to them.

oh hai troll, no I don't remember that at all.. I'm being completely honest. Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

You do realize that this is somewhat similar (maybe not exactly) to the "Prisoner's Dilemma"?

You state yourself, that if everybody does it, it won't be profitable anymore. Your "System" (I call it flaw) relies on guys like me. Without me you can't make those 50K/month and you admit that you'd stop using your "System" should I (as in: everybody) start using it aswell.

It's your "System", that is threatening to destroy the poker eco system, not mine sir, and you admit that in your above posts.

BTW,

the real and main reason I don't shortstack is a rather personal one, Money is important (and whoever plays poker and says it isn't is lying obv), but to me it isn't EVERYTHING. I can't play a robotical shortstack game day in day out. I need to take sophisticated deepstacked postflop lines in order not to get burned out. More power to you and for example SNG grinders who can do this. I can't and I don't want to, and believe it or not, but there actually are winning fullstackers and I happen to be one of them.

I'm sorry, you're wrong here about many things, please read my other posts.
I'm sorry you feel this way, it's evident many would disagree with you.
Ruining the games for who? You? Sorry to hear that. And you speak of the "recreational player" as a whole like you somehow represent the masses of recreational players and their opinions on the current structure of the games. And who's protecting the fish that want to play deep stacked? Well Stars is, by providing them with a 50bb minimum deep stacked table option. What.. most of the fish are at the 20bb minimum tables? Weird.
Evolution refers that play will always gravitate to the table minimum. This doesn't matter if it's 100bb minimum or 10bb minimum. Common sense will tell you this.
I don't need to learn from my statements. I know exactly what will happen. I will develop alternative strategies if Stars decides to implement a system I do not wish to participate in. And I will find whatever system I feel I have the greatest edge and I will take advantage of that system to maximize my bankroll. I think this is evident. I'm just participating in the discussion and making my stance known.

This is incorrect unless you are a fish.

I do not make my money off of full stack regulars. The ones I play against are pretty damn good and I don't have much of an edge on them if any. They are too few and far between and might as well be short stackers imo. The higher up you go, the more shortstackers/player. At the high stakes it's generally all short stacker v short stacker... but we aren't capped at 20bb.. this changes everything.

I make my money off of fish.. and when a fish doubles up off me.. I try to take it all until he's gone. If he gets a full stack from all my shoves... then I try to take it all. Now if you CAP the allin.. you ruin the games for me. Be my guest. If you and every full stack regular alive starts short stacking all the current normal 20bb tables I will still make my $50k+ a month as long as you don't CAP my allin.

He's really bordering on troll status with this nonsense now. Intentionally lying in order to try and support his POV.

Okay, I've spent way too much time in here. I think my stance is pretty clear. Too bad Stars can't make everyone happy right?

I'm off to bed, and then to grind, grind, grind, grind....

without trying to sound like a dick needbeer, if your volume was dropped by 20% then I'm almost certain you wouldn't move to another site since you almost certainly still wouldn't be able to make what you do through the vip system at stars.

Poker steve, are there any numbers available for actually how much profit a SS SNE generates for stars on average? (I mean their rake contribution will be less than a full stack SNE player, yet still get 65% equivilent rakeback or whatever), It will likely/obviously still be positive, but knowing information like this would at leaast make us more informed of how important they are to stars.

Oh and secondly needbeer, I doubt that a change to buy in structure would change your win rate much, since you are probably the most adept SSer around , am almost certain you could take to 35bb min or full stacking with ease and just a little time anyway, gl with the health, hope things go well for you.

Oh geeze. I gave you too much credit or you are continuing to be disingenuous. vpp is not contributed. It is based on MGR. Your vpp/hand means nothing in relation to how much YOU actually contribute to the rake. You at least understand the difference between MGR and rake paid, right?

I'm glad to hear you're making all these advanced postflop plays. You must have a ton of really interesting advanced postflop decisions at your high stakes games.

most decent shortstacks make 10+k rake per month, fact

fyp

No, fullstackers don't agree with you on this one. You are currently playing a 20-30bb CAP poker strategy, yet you are opposed to CAP poker? We all know why... you know if its a 20-40 type non CAP game, stacks will build on these tables, and your stack size edge will re-appear, and you can just rathole those games.

Let me ask you this... if a SSer is creating their own CAP game buying in for 20bb, and ratholing at 30bb, why do you think they have some inherent 'right' to play vs deep stacks? To take this further, why do you think SSers have this right to play with someone who buys in for even 31bb?

If Stars implements a CAP game, calling them CAP is not 'mislabeling' them. That is what they are, and not labeling a CAP game would be very confusing to players. Also, 40-100+ ish deep poker IS considered normal/standard poker. If you play a game that is non-standard (which you do), then that is the one that should be labeled as such.

lol..lol..!! 50bb tables, mate !!! the more competent players you play against the more SOPHISTICATED lines you'll face and the more you learn to do that yourself..!!

I smell righteous BS argument again and again, so sick of 'real poker', 'inherent edge', 'saving poker for long term', 'fish find it fun playing 3 street poker with regular'...that is a good one....lol. The only fair solution is to have shallow, medium, and deep with little over lap and let the fish decide where to go. No pigeon hole the casual player to one kinda of table.

Not that I'm pulling for the shortstackers, far from it, but I'm not so sure how it would hurt to give them a game that has a 20-30bb buyin that isn't "capped" from the perspective of how much can be bet at any one time. If stacks build up, great, they build up, and if that gives them back their normal advantage, that seems fine by me. Then the medium game comes in at 35bb + buyin and isn't capped either. Fish would probably join both games in this situation instead of them being siphoned off to the 20bb tables and away from the 50bb tables as they are currently. If PS can figure out how to compromise here without driving all SS'ers totally away, and we fullstacks get what we want too, that seems like the proverbial win/win.

Needbeer is getting owned in this thread.

Mark

I posted this as my first post in the original thread about this topic, but it seems appropriate given your argument here to repost. Sorry if you've already read this.

"So you know where I'm coming from, I put in about 350k hands last year on Stars, came up 5k vpp's short of supernova so I'm no noob, granted I'm no expert either. I'm not 2+2 reg either, I lurk occasionally but hardly ever post.

I've got a long history in video games and this is where I'm coming from in this post, the issue here is like tons of other great video games. There is an exploit here that is making the games no fun for the majority of the people that play and came to the game to enjoy themselves. It happened with "Bunny Hopping" in Counterstrike near the beginning of that game, where if you learned a specific way to jump and move your mouse and use the keyboard you could start going faster and faster and faster, so eventually you were jumping super fast which allowed you to get to areas on the map faster than people not using this exploit could do and it was a huge advantage. There are tons of other examples in First Person Shooters, MMRPG's, even pen and paper games like Dungeons and Dragons etc (I'm sure others can post examples). The game has a flaw in it that allows those that know about the flaw to do something that was never intended by the game designers. It's not the game designers fault that it's there, it just is. It's really not wrong to use this exploit either, it's not against the rules and you can't really be angry at the people that use the exploit either to their advantage, they are just playing the game at the most extreme level within the rules of the game.

Almost all of these games come in with a patch to fix the flaw so that the game can return to the roots and direction it was intended to go from the beginning and allow people to be on a more equal footing so that skill and experience, and not some secret tactic, rule the game. In the meantime while the flaw still exists, those that take advantage of it do so (ShortStackers) and then there are others who cling to NOT using the flaw because they feel like it hurts the purity of the game (Fullstack regs), even though they are at a distinct disadvantage by not using the flaw for their own gain. Those that claim they play a fullstack on a table full of short stackers are so much BS, the effective stack is no bigger than 20 bb so what's the point with the fullstack? Right, there is none.

I've been playing on the 50bb tables exlusively at stars for months, probably 3-5 months before FT upped the min buyin, because I was sick of dealing with the SS'ers. Could I adjust to the SS'ers, yes, but, the 50bb games where better, imo, because of my full stack optimized stealing/LAGish style, than the regular games at stars with the SS'ers. When FT upped the buyin, I created a FT account and have begun playing there some. I have to confess that the FT regular ring games are SOOOooooo much softer than the 50bb games at stars, but probably no softer than the "regular" games at stars, the problem is, you have to deal with those people employing the exploit at stars and they aren't on FT Since the FT change, the 50bb games at stars have gotten even worse, the players per flop%'s have gone down, why this is, I don't know, don't care, but all the while, the "regular" games at stars have maintained their juiciness as far as fish, but albeit are even more infested with those exploiting the loophole in the game

I'm sick of being thrown in my own room (50bb tables)(punished) with the other fullstackers who put in the time and effort to learn the skillful way to play the game while all of the ss'ers who are employing this exploit, that's takes a VERY small fraction of the time to learn compared with a full stack strategy, get to gorge on all the fish to their hearts content. Stars, please fix the exploit, return the game to it's roots so everyone has the ability to play in the same place, return the purity to the game. As much as I love Stars, if they don't fix this problem, I WILL eventually move all of my business to FT and stars will eventually be known as the place where you have to know the exploit (bunny hopping, short stacking) to play or else you'll be at a huge disadvantage. This will be very bad for the game if the biggest site is known as the "exploit" site."

These two answers are very telling. You are basically admitting here that you do have an inherent advantage solely based on having a much smaller relative stack size, and that if your ability to play with a 20 bb stack versus a much greater stack size was taken away, you would "move on to greener pastures". Your stance supporting ratholing is the most telling - that you need to be able to take money off of the table to continue having your edge.

+1

don't forget to fix the HU too

I guess the whiners will be the shallow stackers and I will get a new avatar in April.

Then all you ratholers can adapt to BSS with your mad poker skills or move to the next site. Either way, all you shove bots are done.