Lee, of the 5 players that attended the March IOM meeting, 3 of us to my knowledge are active 2p2 posters. Meleab, JH1, and myself.

As Meleab pointed out, we didn't have a lot of time to go into great detail about the 40bb/ratholing problem, but the consensus was that it was a problem that needed to be addressed, the only question was how. Many very viable suggestions have been put forth but we have not received any feedback on them, other than a blanket statement claiming that all ideas/suggestions to date contained major flaws. It's fair to say that the three of us along with the majority of the 2p2 community cash players are hugely disappointed.

It is also very understandable why so many posters feel so disenfranchised since the first player meeting. These meetings are a good idea in theory, but in practice they seem to have replaced what was once a great line of communication between Stars and the largest assembly of their player base on the internet.

I will say that I do still appreciate the work you do here in these round table threads, as well as other Stars staffers like Stefan and SteveD in other areas. It gets really frustrating however, when one of these threads pops up, a Stars rep pops in, and the questions this community wants to ask and the subjects it wants to discuss get forgotten.

You said that Alex made a very eloquent post on the subject of shortstacking/ratholing. You do realize that it is Alex's belief that everybody should be able to rathole without even leaving the table right? As an old school guy in poker, I can't understand how you would think ratholing is okay.

There are many publications by well respected authors that acknowledge the existence of and explain the mathematical advantage that short stacking gives. It forces everybody at the table to tighten up considerably at the table. This is has nothing to do with a lack of skill with playing wider ranges. Optimal 3bet/4bet ranges with 40bb stacks are not very difficult to derive. So if a competent short stack 3bets your open there is literally nothing that you can do to avoid being exploited other than playing like a nit and opening tighter ranges, especially when there are 4-5 pro short stacks at full ring table, and it's pretty common even as low as NL10! This results in less flops seen which is bad for Stars, bad for recreational players who like to see flops and all this hit and running is just disgusting.

You guys already created a short stacked game for these guys to play - CAP. Many of the guys playing 40bb stacks now are guys who were playing 20bb stacks at regular tables back when that was still allowed.

But they have no interest in playing in the short stack game. They just want to short stack the regular games.

I really hope you can find the time and revisit this topic, listen to your customers and keep an open dialogue. If we can do that, then I see absolutely no reason why we couldn't lick this shortstacking/ratholing problem once and for all.

i think, like McNitt was saying, we'd just appreciate a dialogue.
We aren't shareholders, granted, but with the millions of dollars the people in this thread generate for your company alone, i think that dialogue has been earned.

We're aware that the reps' words carry weight and are hesitant or more likely instructed, nowadays, not to comment on subjects as touchy as this one; as to not cause a sht storm on 2p2 and every other poker site if PSSteve had made a typo and said, 'we're considering raising the min buy in to 600'. But, i think we'd all agree that the dialogue itself is paramount on even the most heated discussions.

That's why i always liked Stars. It was refreshing to watch a billion dollar company grow and engage the community, as opposed to the standard cut throat business methods of the old models; which are, imho, outdated and going the way of the buffalo. if you've played on stars for years, you can see the differences in management and it sucks. you probably can't comment on this out of fear of losing your jobs, but we know you know. we also know you know we know.

anyways, please feel free to shred these proposals and tell us the 'fatal flaws' so we can quickly rectify the dying game that is full ring.

1. limited minimum buy ins.
i.e. you can only buy in for the min on X amount of tables at a time. Encouraging full stack play coupled with a pop that says, 'if you enjoy playing with less bbs, plz feel free to try out one of our glorious CAP games, otherwise piss off and stop using your mathematical advantage/HnR strat that is strangling this incredible game.'

2. raising the min.
this is obviously the most debated. I believe the minimum at the 'normal' tables should be at least 65bbs. this allows for enough play on all streets, implied odds, and discourages hit-n-running (which will, in turn, clean up the wait lists). others will argue that we should lobby for 50bbs in hopes that getting something is better than nothing. Even though raising it to fifty would absolutely be better than the current state, ssers, HnR'ing, and clogged wait lists would still be as prevalent as it is right now. No one wants another ten threads like this next year (except me and starvingwriter).

all ideas considered should be coupled with a stake-wide rat clock. Whatever the number of hours should be, as that's the crux of the problem.

even something as simple as raising the min to 50bigs and having that stake clock would help the game massively in the short term.

some people don't seem to realize that the amount a grinder is making is far less than what it used to be (esp. me cuz i suck). but when there's less money on the tables, there's less money you can win. when everyone is 3b'folding or sqz'ing and not taking a flop, there's no rake and no fpps. coupled with the wc, grinders are making a significant amount less at their stakes than previous years. so as much you (stars) wants to say 'were thinking about it', we're sitting in the dark making thousands less.

when will stars sponsor an english football club?

Why not just have 60bb min buy in tables?

Why don't you sponsor gripping 40bb matches between Rafa, Durr & Isuldurr? Can't wait to see Durrr grim 1bb of Rafa and leave the table. That will go down in history as a classic match, played just the way Poker Stars intends the game to be played.



Why don't you HU 4 Rollz a ss'er for public giggles. Bet you don't even know what a chart is.

One simple question Mr. jones.

You stated that nobody could come up with a solution that didn't have any fatal flaws. One solution proposed by many is to raise the min buy in. Most would like to see 65, but lets say raise it to 50.

If the min buy in was raised to 50bb, how could that be potentially fatal? And if Pokerstars does believe a 50bb min buy in is a potentially fatal flaw then why was Zoom Poker released with this very same potentially fatal flaw?

Mr. Lee Jones can you give PS official response about situation in low stakes CAP poker and that game type future?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...oblem-1278100/

It was already answered but in the other thread.

^^^ This +1,000,000

1. Had Pokerstars NOT split the player pool and just made the entire poker site 50BB min. buy-in (like almost all of Las Vegas live poker rooms) then I think that would have been a reasonable solution with live game history to back up the decision.

2. Since Pokerstars DID split the player pool and create a 20BB game, someone at Pokerstars with the balls to talk needs to get on here and explain why having the regular game a bit higher than 50BB isn't a reasonable solution. The 20BB CAP games makes it very reasonable to have a 60-65BB regular game min. buy-in.

Two very simple points. And mostly just silence from Pokerstars/Jones.

In this thread I called the PokerStars Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory Summits a fail. Just for grins I decided to take a look to see if these "round table" discussions are just as much of a fail. I looked up the last 5 round table threads hosted by Lee Jones and his post count per reply percent in this thread is interestingly low...

12/12/13 Lee 3 posts in a 82 reply thread for a 4% contribution to the round table

12/10/13 8 posts in 31 post thread for a 26% contribution.

12/10/05 2 of 10 for 20% contribution.

12/09/16 5 of 45 for 11% contribution.

12/08/17 5 of 30 for 17% contribution.

In none of those threads did Jones contribute less than 10% of comments until this thread. I'm not gonna call anyone a hypocrite. But if these "round table disccusions" aren't really discussions when it comes to the imporatnt topics then I guess the round tables get a failing grade too.

just sayin'

Shortstacks make me angry, yes. They force me to adapt me to a certain style of play which is absolutely no fun for me to play. It angers me they can enter tables and forcing full stackers to adapt to them (stacksize wise), not the other way around.

It is really frustrating for me as a 100bb (full ring) player there are absolutely no options to play deeper stacked. If I want to play shortstacked poker, I can play sit and goes, mtts, cap games, basically any game available.

But when I want to play 100bb poker, options are extremely limited. Not only that, but the people who do have all those options have to come to the games which potentially can be the deeper stacked games I play in. Ruining it for me in the process and resulting in me quitting my sessions. At the moment there are days or hours in the week I do not even bother to open Pokerstars anymore, because the games are so shortstacked heavy.

I do not see why this has to be like this. Sure there can be a solution where everybody can play what they please?

But what angers me the most is the complete lack of communication between the players who would like some answers regarding this subject and Pokerstars.

As my name implies, I sometimes tilt, and mostly because of the huge amount of shortstacks. Recently when I have to quit my session because of the shortys I angrily email (who I think are awesome btw) pokerstars support asking why shortstacks have to be there and if there will ever anything done about it. However I always get the same useless reply, saying they know about the problem and looking into it, while forwarding me to the technical department or something. Then after I while I get some response saying there are games for everybody for every stake (which is not true btw), and shortstacking is within the rules, and that the problem has been acknowledged, but in the end question never gets answered.

If there would be a pokerstars employee who would tell me to stop whining and the games stay the way they are and I just have to deal it, I would accept it. I would hate it, but accept it.

But now Pokerstars is giving me hope saying they know about the problem, looking for solutions and even have meetings about this subject. But whenever this subject is brought up, Pokerstars looks away and nothing happens for months. Why can't Pokerstars be honest about it? If I don't like it, fine and I know what the situation is. But giving me hope is so extremely frustrating.

Its over, at least another 1 year with 40bb-rs.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=774

tnx for the heads up, did not know that.

Dissapointing.

Of course you did not know. This round table thread has been virtually round table-LESS. Lee has gone into hiding like a Merge or Lock sub-forum rep not wanting to answer questions. And Pokerstars Steve essentially was called into to cover for Lee (all be it in other threads since they were miserably underperforming their customer service responsibilities in this thread). To let you know what was going on in this thread would have required posting in this thread and bumping it. They hoped this thread and their lack of quality service would just fall off the front page.

But since they did nothing, they will be facing this issue again in 2013. And problably trying to blow smoke up your ass the whole time with failure meetings and round tables.

I understand your frustration. Last two months I have played 50% less hands per week compared to the two months before those. Having just as much free time. I just gave up hope Pokerstars really cares about this problem. If they really wanted to solve shortstacking/ratholing I am sure we would have heard something last couple of months. I just do not understand why they insist on trying to keep everybody happy saying they are looking for solutions etc etc, but in reality don't do anything (so it seems) and are just buying time. They don't owe us anything (except for some answers about this subject), so if we don't like it, bad luck for us.

Like I said earlier, I think it is important to get some clear communication. They don't need to dodge us. If a Pokerstars rep tells us ratholing and shortstacking is here to stay because he is a big fan of Ivan Drago, I would hate it but atleast I have some answers and know what is going to happen. Now they said they were open for a discussion but now they don't feel like closing it. Almost if they regret opening it in the first place and now have no plan to back out.

Either care, or don't care. I need some answers, some closure. This has been going on for way too long.

dissapointed at the lack of a reply by Lee or any other PokerStars representative.

This was supposed to be a roundtable discussion between 2p2 and pokerstars, seems like we're the only one doing any discussing

Why not have a secret sauce algorithm for rathole rating and apply it to accounts so people can either do a bunch of ratholing once every week or so or rathole here and there over the course of their lives without noticing a thing. ACTUAL ratholers would experience a sort of "peak usage charge" of longer and longer wait times but the protected group (short bankrolled users actually taking shots) wouldn't be stopped from playing as they wish.

I'm assuming there is a glaring hole in this.

As primarily a limit player, short-stacking seems wtf. The game is no limit. There should be a minimum buyin (say 100bb) and that's it. Remove restricted buyins, and watch the stacks become more even (after a period of people buying in for 1000bb+ just to be douches wears off).

Make no limit games no limit again. Whenever you have restricted buyins, you'll always have a short-stacking component to the game. Remove the cap, and after a while you'll have a more uniform buyin amount.

Lee, what exactly is the point of these 'round table' threads if not to discuss the issues that players care about?

Why is this thread dying? Let's keep in on the first page so everyone can see the kind of "discussions" pokerstars has in mind with these types of threads.

Dr. Jones wake up now!

. I guess your understanding of a roundtable discussion is sending Lee in here with a bunch of questions+answers relating to non-issues, questions that nobody asked or cares about for the most part then have him disappear when the community asks its own questions.


To those of you maintaining Lee is a good guy and just the messenger, etc, would you be working for PokerStars when you see your job is to do PR while simultaneously ignoring the customers/community? I have a feeling PS is expecting this response from the community, one of giving Lee some slack, seeing him as a friendly face amidst an evil company. That's probably why he's the one they want in the middle of all this.

Another way to look at it is that he's saying quite a lot with his silence. He could be in here giving paragraph after paragraph of apologist nonspeak and mumbo jumbo, but he chooses not to. I have no idea what's going on with him or internally at Stars but when you compare Lee to various other Stars' spokespeople it seems pretty clear he hasn't yet sold his soul.

Be fair, Stars staff have probably been stuck at EPT Prague trying to get to grips with Open-Face Chinese Poker and other pressing matters all week. They're likely rushing back to IoM HQ to deal with this thread as we speak.

Just a bump to keep this on the front page.