Imagine on 01-27-2011, you were told, "You're getting a brand new red Mustang Convertible".
"Hell ya, where is it ..."
"Here's a picture of it."
"... Oh ... nice, so when do I get it?"
"February 10th."
"[sigh] Ok, that's not too far out. Wow, new Mustang, huh?! So, awesome! Thanks!"
[in the distance, ratty next door neighbor kid can be heard whining about how he didn't get a Mustang, but how his Toyota Tercel is actually more popular]

...

February 9th rolls around ...
"Alright, ready to drive muh new Mustang. Gonna be sooo kick ass."
"Yup, it'll be here first thing tomorrow."
"I'm so happy for THAT."
"Keep in mind, the KEYS won't get here until Wednesday the 16th."
"What the hell?!?"
"Ya, the keys were sent separately, but we can take some pictures. Show your friends."
"Mmm hmmm ... "

I'm JEEST KEEDING! I already knew about the server reset. Tomorrow if we can start default, no label 100bb max NLHE games and 50bb max games CAN'T be started, then I'll be happier than a puppy with two peters. In fact, watching 50bb max tables slowly dwindle to death has some appealing metaphoric poetic justice behind it ... also, ratholers gotta sleep sometime ...

Yes, I'd love to know EXACTLY when we can start a default labeled 100bb max game and not start a 50bb max game? My case of Bawls is scheduled to arrive today and I'd like to know if I can use it or not

The changes will be implemented sometime between 8am and 6pm Eastern (US) time tomorrow.

Thanks for clarifying

Ah, ok, sounds like no late night Bawls or even vacation day from work for me ... but, thanks for the information. I'll definitely clear my evening/night, though

Thanks again!

I don't play at stars, but I'm curious. There are and have been CAP games at Full Tilt for years now, and the player base is small. Why do people think that the cap games will blow up on Stars?

Bring CAP games to all PLO levels. One time!

Most of us, like you, don't believe CAP games will be very popular for this exact reason. CAP tables on Stars WILL be more popular than Tilt because of the VIP program that rewards high volume. But, the only players claiming CAP will be VERY popular or more popular than NLHE imo are either delusional or extremely wishful thinking. I'm talking about cash games from $200NL down to $2Nl - not sure what to expect at midstakes and beyond. We won't know for sure, though, until we see it with thine eyes

They were really popular before 20-40 bb was introduced. Now the player pool is pretty well split between those 2 games. Still they get plenty of traffic.

Cap will be more popular than most fullstackers think and less popular than most shortstackers think.

The cap games on FTP are 30bb, which doesn't interest players who like 20bb. On the 20-50bb tables on Stars, I would estimate about 90% of the players on those tables buyin for the minimum of 20bb, so they will most likely transition to the cap tables. I doubt anyone who plays at 100bb tables is suddenly going to switch to CAP, and some of the 20-50bb players will likely start playing 100bb tables.

I'm guessing that 100bb will have more players on those tables once the 20-50bb tables are phased out then they have now, but overall CAP tables will probably outnumber 100bb tables.

Because all the shortstackers left tilt for stars. They have nowhere to go now. so you will see a lot more of them on cap tables. More cap tables more likely fish will join the tables. Plus since fish don't see them hit and running they won't understand what is going on.

agree 100% though that stars incentives program is reponsible for cash games going to crap more than anything else. the program encourages break even players to 20 table and make money through rakeback.

also fish will almost always prefer games in the long run (everything else being equal) where the advanatge is small for good players. It allows them to keep money longer, although the house makes more from them too, thus less money going to players. I am 100% against letting fish decide what they want to play because inevitably it means putting them in flips where only the house wins. the idea that if fish want to play 3bb poker it should exist is ludicrous.

Any game that is nearly solved should not be offered as a choice of play. My guess is within 1 year 20bb cap games will be dominated by bots. Well perhaps not dominated (in terms of winning), more so in terms of them clogging tables, but certainly have a lot of them playing and making a profit.

Tons of things wrong with this post, but I'd like to know how do you reconcile these two thoughts in your mind.

Yes - you cannot have it both ways.

Either fish discriminate in their table selection process or they don't.

The way I see it there is two possible advantages to 40-100bb players from this change.

1. The reduced need for SSer to table create via a CAP structure means that there probably should be less 20bb CAP tables than 20-50bb tables. Meaning if fish were indiscriminate about which tables they choose then the % of tables 40-100bb represent from total tables should be larger. Which should mean it more likely a fish would fall on a 40-100bb table.
2. With the reduced edge in a 20bb CAP structure - the possible decline in total number of SSers - which should all things being equal on 'new' regular SSer - given the total amount of 'losers' money going around will decline. Which could in turn decrease CAP turnover.

Migration flow from 20-50bb tables.

If fish were discrimating in their choice prior to the change -
40-100bb only benefit if the fish liked 20-50bb but does not like CAP and migrates to 40-100bb AND obviously does not quit cash game poker (i.e. does not dislike 40-100bb strucutre and CAP equally)

If fish were indiscriminate - 40-100bb poker only benefits if CAP game tables represent a smaller % of total table population.

For the sake of simplicity. An example of possible discriminating fish scenario

lets say
10000 6 handed tables existed prior to the change both 20-50 and 40-100.
and there was 1 fish in each table on both types.
ALL tables are full at all times.
1666 tables 1666 fish.

say 60% of the tables were 20-50bb
1000 - 20-50bb
666 - 40-100bb

and two of every 3 fish move to 40-100bb tables (discriminating choice) 1/3 to CAP
ALL SSer move to CAP

2/3 of 1000 fish would move into 40-100bb
666

334 would move to CAP

Prior to the change there was 666 6M 40-100bb tables with
3330 regulars
666 fish
3996

666 fish move - so fish population doubles but total tables also increase
3996+666 = 4662 total 40-100bb population / 6 = 777 tables
1332 total fish population /777 tables

There would be 1.71 fish per table

CAP games
5000 regulars
334 fish migrate to CAP 6M
total population now
5334/6
889 tables
.37 fish per table

Not sure that example is simple ... bottom line for me, if there are 100 fish in the 50bb pool, if only ONE plays 100bb max and not CAP, NLHE games INSTANTLY get better. That's the main reason I'm so happy. As a 100bb max player, there's really no way 100bb max games CAN'T get better. They can ONLY get better.

If 51 or more of the 100 fish play NLHE over CAP, then NLHE is "more popular" than CAP in my book. There could be a zillion ratholers who all go to CAP tables and I wouldn't consider them "more popular". My main concern is with the casual player. I'm not as concerned with full stacking professionals and DEFINITELY don't care where ratholers go ... winning players go where the money is anyway

this

Isnt this change tomorrow>

Ill be on bright and early to check it out.

Come on man, you know that isn't true.

Of course you can have it both ways. Otherwise, why would they try so hard to get it?

Unless shortstacking regs decide to learn 40-100 and start breaking fish faster with their new deeper stacks.

We're leaving together
But still it's farewell
And maybe we'll come back
To Stars, who can tell?
I guess there is no one to blame
We're leaving ground
Will things ever be the same again?

It's the final countdown
The final countdown

Pretty simple really.

point 1 fish don't like being hit and run. Anyone who plays on 20-50bb will see that fish constantly complain about shortstacks leaving and not giving them a chance to win back their money. Has nothing to do with skill level. In cap game fish will be less irritated by shortstacks than at 20-50 (since that player remains at the table). when you take away ratholing fish will see shorstacks as less anoying even though nothing has changed.

point 2. Not sure how this conflicts. fish often prefer games with less skill element and more luck. Hence why deep stacks are often avoided. Its rare you hear fish complaining about tournament structures or lack of post flop play. It's why fish play online casino roulette etc. When people tell me fish prefer cap games I don't neccesarily disagree. Even a fish understands they limit their loses by playing cap. A good shortstacker can nowhere near exploit a fish like a reg can at 100bb even if they are of similar skill. This is why very few good regular headsup players play on the 20-50 tables.

Stars just make ALL games CAP (with a 100b)

Honestly though I don't know if this will make the games better or worse. Wish I could predict where fish are going but I can't. It will also likely be months before a stable player base for CAP games can be calculated (since new games start off small, then have peak jump after a few weeks as new players discover them, then eventually drop back down as novelty factor wears off).

- We are talking about meaningful differences.

- I am trying to quantify what the change will likely mean

If there is no meaningful change in the quality of the games - then what was the point of destroying the 20-50bb games?

Spite?

Anyway it will all come out once the changes take place.

Nonetheless - unless there is a change in rate of outflow vs rate of inflow into cash games - then I think you will be underwhelmed by the difference.

It's already Feb10 here, today when exactly will those changes happen ?

10-20hours from now

The point of the changes is to improve the quality of the games and it will do just that. I personally think at least 90% of the casual players are going to play NLHE after the change and not CAP. I don't think casual players like CAP and I don't think they like the CAP label. But, yes, we will see. I just again want to make the point that a bunch of ratholers playing CAP doesn't make it popular.