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PokerStars rakeback equivalent chart PokerStars rakeback equivalent chart

01-13-2010 , 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant___z
You "lose" $1690 in rewards by not starting as SN already (this figure is "useful" for anyone starting as bronze and aiming above 100K VPP in 2010).
That's the very reason why I made sure I got Supernova before the end of last year (although I would have been platinum otherwise).

Still, 2.5x and 3.5x is a 40% difference for most of the year when going for Supernova.
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01-14-2010 , 03:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMagicM
If you start out as Bronze, achieve Platinum in your first month and keep it until you reach Supernova, you rakeback will be 39.80% ($54,545.45 rake for $21,709.70 bonus). With the Reload Bonus(es) and the January Sale (assuming you have enough FPP), the rakeback percentage will be above 40%.

And yeah, somebody should change or remove OP's charts...
I'm sorry I dont quite understand this. You are saying you get $21,709.70 in bonus if you start at Bronze and reach Supernova?

I see:
$1500 VIP Rewards Bonus
$1000 Stellar Rewards
$1000 Milestone

So $3500 in bonus.

I know you would have some FPPs leftover but I don't know exactly how to calculate its worth. I'm guessing somewhere around $1200 range.

Considering that if you started the year at platinum when you hit Supernova you would have 250k FPPs, I'm assuming starting at Bronze you would have just a little less. Meaning you wouldn't have enough for $4k VIP Rewards bonus.
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01-14-2010 , 04:05 AM
Not just reach SN but this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pm22
I"m interested in what % rakeback I will get starting as a bronzestar. Can anybody help me out? I'm aiming for 300k milestone. Thank you.
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01-14-2010 , 04:25 AM
ahh ok thanks.

Are my calculations more or less correct of what you would earn going from Bronze to Supernova? (Not including freerolls and deposit bonus)
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01-14-2010 , 04:39 AM
Calculations usually are made assuming the standard max rate (a best case scenario).

Imagine that you play a bit more (eventually in 2011) and finally reach FPPs enough so you could buy the $4000 cash bonus.
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01-14-2010 , 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Li Phan OK
ahh ok thanks.

Are my calculations more or less correct of what you would earn going from Bronze to Supernova? (Not including freerolls and deposit bonus)
You would get $5109.70 bonus for $18,181.82 rake - that's 28.10% rakeback.

The bonus consists of:

- $1000 Stellar Rewards
- $1000 Milestone Bonus
- 194,356 FPP worth $3109.70 (assuming $0.016 per FPP)

To get the maximum rakeback, you would need to accumulate another 50,000 FPP to buy the $4000 bonus.

If you just settle for 2 x $1500 bonuses, each FPP would only be worth $0.015 - or $2915.34 for 194k FPP. That's equivalent to 27.03% rakeback.
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01-14-2010 , 05:50 AM
$4,000 Supernova bonus is xP. 250,000 fpp then another 28,000 vpp to clear, would take months. Gives a value to each fpp at 1.6 cents. On the other hand, 13,500 fpp to purchase a $215 ticket gives a value of 1.592 cents per fpp which is way more prefferred. Can you run figures for each at 1.592 cent fpp's?

But yeah thanks so much for your figures, will definately save me some posts in these forums lol. I'll add this thread to my faves.

Seriously, Good job!

Last edited by Ertai2; 01-14-2010 at 05:53 AM. Reason: .
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01-14-2010 , 06:04 AM
Here my table updated with the kind input of everybody.



Bonus earned assumes that the highest possible bonus is bought (i.e. $0.016 per FPP which means buying Sunday Million entry at low level, or $4k for 250,000 FPPs at SN)
All level take into account the Stellar Rewards.
SuperNova and Elite take into account the milestones (bought for 50k FPPs)
The supernova numbers assume that you are already SN at the beginning of the year. That is, you already win 3.5 FPPs per 1 VPP.
SNE package is taken into account for approx. $25k value.
Freerolls and other promotions are not taken into account (like the re-deposit bonus).

The SNE assume that you start SN. Next year its value will be ~69% .

Basically anybody aiming for SNE or higher should make his own calculations (that is, don't bug me for that part )
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01-14-2010 , 06:38 AM
So if you can maintain Platinum Star for the rest of the year, it's actually worth it to play on PokerStars over FTP?
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01-14-2010 , 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise
like the Ironman stuff on FTP, right?
I'm not sure what this comment means, but if you are saying the Ironman promo is confusing then I would disagree. I don't need charts for it.
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01-14-2010 , 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaisuke
So if you can maintain Platinum Star for the rest of the year, it's actually worth it to play on PokerStars over FTP?
No. Full Tilt points and Iron Man increase your rakeback by ~5%+. Unless you reach Supernova, you're probably better off at Full Tilt.

If you reach the 200,000 milestone on Stars, you're certainly better off at Stars.

What seems like close to a wash is if you hit only Supernova, but no milestones. In such a case, you are probably better at Stars because your overall rakeback is at least equal to FTP (and is probably slightly higher), the rake charged in certain games at Stars is slightly less, and most importantly the Customer Service at Stars is excellent while the Customer Service at Full Tilt is horrid.

Last edited by Andronicus; 01-14-2010 at 07:09 AM.
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01-14-2010 , 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andronicus
No. Full Tilt points and Iron Man increase your rakeback by ~5%+. Unless you reach Supernova, you're probably better off at Full Tilt.

If you reach the 200,000 milestone on Stars, you're certainly better off at Stars.

What seems like close to a wash is if you hit only Supernova, but no milestones. In such a case, you are probably better at Stars because your overall rakeback is at least equal to FTP (and is probably slightly higher), the rake charged in certain games at Stars is slightly less, and most importantly the Customer Service at Stars is excellent while the Customer Service at Full Tilt is horrid.
Hmm. This is what I've been trying to figure out and its kinda tough. I would not expect to hit 200k milestone, but would expect to easily hit Supernova. Figure soon after I hit Supernova I could probably get the $4k VIP Bonus.

You make a good point though about the Stars rake and CS.
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01-14-2010 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nofx Fan
I'm not sure what this comment means, but if you are saying the Ironman promo is confusing then I would disagree. I don't need charts for it.
stars' charts here are no more confusing than iron man was exactly what my comment meant
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01-14-2010 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTurn2Raise
stars' charts here are no more confusing than iron man was exactly what my comment meant
No way!

Full-Tilt Iron Man is very simple and straight forward. If you dont believe me then check it here:

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/promotions/ironman

If you dont know exactly your RB% by the end of the page you shouldnt be playing poker at all...
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01-14-2010 , 07:24 PM
So finally how many percent rakeback i get? I'm supernova and i buy only cash bonuses (i use all reload also) and assume that i reach only the first milestone. So how many % ??
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01-14-2010 , 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by storm88
So finally how many percent rakeback i get? I'm supernova and i buy only cash bonuses (i use all reload also) and assume that i reach only the first milestone. So how many % ??
Its 37.4% for a 100K Supernova (without other bonus) and 39% if included reload bonus and january sale bonus discount price (there may be other extras throughout the year), assuming that you started as SN.

This for 6max, HU or tourney players. Its a bit more if you play Full-Ring...
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01-14-2010 , 08:03 PM
Avicenna, thanks so much for making this chart!
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01-14-2010 , 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iloveny161
Avicenna, thanks so much for making this chart!
+ 1
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01-14-2010 , 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaisuke
So if you can maintain Platinum Star for the rest of the year, it's actually worth it to play on PokerStars over FTP?
If you are able to maintan platinum for the rest of the year, you would be stupid not to shoot for supernova.

12*7.5k = 90k vpps, leaving you only 10k vpps short of hitting supernova.
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01-14-2010 , 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinkerman
Why is two lovers never enough? Well, once I played for a while I fell in love with Stars and loved her dearly, then one day I saw a pair of sexy legs of full tilt across the road and lusted for her body and dumped stars. Then I realised that I could have both these ladies satisfying my needs and I share my love with them both. Believe it or not Iíll willing to share my passion with another, but who could that love lady be?

OK, so Iím not a faithful man but why? Well love is a two way thing and I want the best of all worlds. Firstly, Iím a low stakes player who really enjoys the game but as I donít really play holdem my choices are limited. Secondly, I like to get value from the game so will take the best offers going and feel no need to stay faithful to any site as we never married but just love fooling around together. Note game selection and others factors are important.

So Iíve looked into the new Stars VIP program:

This is formed of 4 main levels Bronze, Silver, Gold, Supernova (there is a platinum, but these people usually get to Supernova after 12 months so are not included here). Everybody is award Bronze VIP and to achieve the others you need 750 VPPs per month, Gold 3,000 a month, Supernova 100k per year. There is now a stellar reward program where you get cash bonuses when you hit certain milestones throughout the year.

The attached spreadsheet gives the returns for a silver VIP assuming a reload bonus throughout the year of $600.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...la1VOQkE&hl=en

Without taking into account freerolls the RB for these levels given the certain amount of reload bonus at the current clearance rate is:

Reload 0 150 300 450 600 750
Bronze 21.6% 47.6% 49.6% 46.3% 47.1% 47.6%
Silver 23.4% 32.4% 41.4% 51.1% 53.4% 52.4%
Gold 26.4% 28.4% 30.9% 33.4% 35.9% 38.4%
SN 45.6% 46.5% 47.4% 48.3% 49.2% 50.1%

As soon as the reload bonus is introduce we see that a Bronze VIP does better than gold or silver. However, once the second reload is introduce then the Silver has the best return (they actually get a better return at $500 reload than $600).

So a Silver VIP does well and maybe worth doing during the reload times.

Now full tilt is a bit more complex.

Basically, you get a point for each dollar of rake taken and 1k points is worth about $5.

Secondly, you can become a bronze (50pt for 20 days), silver (50pts for 25 days), Gold (100pts for 25 days) or Iron man (200pts for 25 days) member. You get medals compared to how long you have been playing and member status. Each medal is worth $0.2, you also get additional medals for not playing in the freeroll event.

Thirdly, you get a mid and end year bonus Bronze $300, Silver $600, Gold $900 and Iron Man $1,200

Finally, you can get 27% RB of remainder of MGR. Though you can add in other benefits such as RB freerolls, rakerace, happy hours, free training site access and other one of promos which I havenít included as you can get most of these at all levels.

The RB you get for these grades is as follows based on 13, 25 and 37 months play:

1 2 3
Bronze 48.0% 51.5% 57.6%
Silver 56.9% 61.8% 70.9%
Gold 51.3% 55.7% 62.7%
IM 45.3% 48.8% 55.8%

What is most odd here is that again silver gives the best rewards and you need to double your play to reach the next level. Of interest here is that after 13 months the rakeback on the additional play between silver and gold is just under 46% and between gold and ironman is just under 40%.

I can probably make silver without a problem and the same goes for Gold, though would be willing to play more sites if they also had as good a deal. Making Gold isnít a problem either.

However, moving from gold to Ironman seems a big more of a commitment and one Iím not sure I want to make with this lady while there are other beauties around. So my first $5k I give tilt I get returned 50%, yet the second $5k I get less than 40% and if I fail to make it then this is less than 30%.

So I both stars and tilt rewards silver very well but then give less and less, though to be fair at Stars is you become a very high volume player (I never will) then you can get your rewards back. Both these systems encourage me to play around and as such I have both these as my lovers.

However, there will be times when Iíve been satisfied by both these ladies but lust for more. Some Iím after a bit on the side with a cheap little lady whoíll let me use her as and when I feel like it. Anybody have any ideas?

By the way this does highlight that the design of rewards systems arenít the best and secondly you should just keep you play at one site. We are consumers and we need to keep a competitive market so letís make best use of whatís available and let the market place complete more competitively for our business and so take the best deals out there for your level of play. Of course never losing sight the rake that a site may charge or the softness of the tables.

PS: sorry about the bad formatting of the tables, if somebody tells me how I'll edit this section.
Tinkerman:

I agree with you, to some extent. Full Tilt Rakeback % drops as you do more volume. So getting just what is needed would improve your %. Let's hope that Full Tilt does something to improve the top end this year, we wil see.
My guess is if my game type where on Poker Stars, with my volume I would be better off on that site. Or maybe as you suggest it is not either or.

Below are my projected numbers @ Full Tilt for 2010. I hope it may help with the comparisions.

$40K Rake (Super Turbo SNG's 20K games $28 plus $2 rake)
$10,800 Rakeback
$1,200 Ironman year end bonus
$700 Ironman Medals (400 medal/Month * 20 cents * .73 (rackback hit))
$715 FTP (280K FTP * 3.5/1000 * .73 (rackback hit))

Bottom Line Numbers:
33.53% Rakeback
6.67% Rake
4.43% Effective Rake
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01-14-2010 , 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildb
Tinkerman:

I agree with you, to some extent. Full Tilt Rakeback % drops as you do more volume. So getting just what is needed would improve your %. Let's hope that Full Tilt does something to improve the top end this year, we wil see.
My guess is if my game type where on Poker Stars, with my volume I would be better off on that site. Or maybe as you suggest it is not either or.

Below are my projected numbers @ Full Tilt for 2010. I hope it may help with the comparisions.

$40K Rake (Super Turbo SNG's 20K games $28 plus $2 rake)
$10,800 Rakeback
$1,200 Ironman year end bonus
$700 Ironman Medals (400 medal/Month * 20 cents * .73 (rackback hit))
$715 FTP (280K FTP * 3.5/1000 * .73 (rackback hit))

Bottom Line Numbers:
33.53% Rakeback
6.67% Rake
4.43% Effective Rake
Isn't there a mid-year iron man bonus aswell?
PokerStars rakeback equivalent chart Quote
01-14-2010 , 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PS SteveD
Thanks for taking such a strong interest in the PokerStars VIP club and its benefits.

At first glance I did notice a few errors in your charts. For example, tournaments should be listed with 6max and heads up games, not with full ring, as tournaments also have a 5.5x VPP earning multiplier. I also noticed that you are not including stellar rewards value for Supernova+ levels. This would add an extra $1000 value for every player who reaches 100,000 VPPs or higher. As many others have mentioned, Supernova Elite VIPs do receive very significant additional value upon reaching 1,000,000 VPPs.

Most VIP club members do receive more value that what you have listed here. Only a small percentage of FPPs are spent on Bonuses. SilverStar and GoldStar members in particular can (and often do) receive more value from their FPPs by spending them on tournament tickets, gift cards, and several other items with higher $/FPP value.

In addition, you have not included any value for the weekly, monthly, or quarterly VIP freerolls. These tournaments add a lot of value at every level of the VIP club. VIP members will earn over $6.5 million from VIP freerolls this year.

In the past PokerStars has also offered multiple reload bonuses each year. Players who took full advantage of all reload bonuses last year earned an extra $670 in value. There has already been one reload bonus worth up to $150 this year. Participation in PokerStars reload bonuses does not in any way deduct from what players can receive through our VIP Club. This is in fact true of all PokerStars promotions, earning rewards in one way never reduces the value of other rewards earned.

Again, thanks for taking the time to put this together in an effort to help inform your fellow players. If you have any questions about how to calculate value, please don't hesitate to ask.
thanks for taking the time to respond, but it's still hard to walk away from this without the impression that poker stars enjoys/benefits from the overall ambiguity surrounding the value of the vpp program

the industry standard is to state rakeback in terms of a percentage of rake paid, either contributed or dealt. stars not only does not feature this model, it seems to decline requests to state its model in these terms.

steved notes that stars gives players additional value beyond FPPs, but nearly all sites have additional incentives such as reload bonuses, point accumulation that can purchases items in a store, etc. i cannot claim to speak with authority on the frequency of bonuses offered at various sites, but a rough recollection of the last year suggests stars wasn't really far above or behind the industry in this measurement.

as far as the store, full tilt et al have these in addition to rakeback, whereas on stars the store is the only outlet to achieve some rakeback equivalency.

stars also has some freerolls and whatnot, but i don't believe the value is great enough to make them a solid time investment for many people who have achieved supernova.

thus it is somewhat disingenuous to claim that the OP's model, meant to compare stars VIP program to FTP, AP, etc., is not a somewhat complete effort.
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01-14-2010 , 09:28 PM
also without doing any math, the numbers OP produced look roughly in line with what i had seen before under a CONTRIBUTED model, which will produce a higher rakeback number than a DEALT model, which is what full tilt uses

this does not mean you are making more - it only means it LOOKS like you are. you pay less rake on average than the table, since your VPIP is lower than the table if you are a TAG regular

for a fair comparison to FTP, numbers should be done using a dealt model
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01-14-2010 , 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by terp
the industry standard is to state rakeback in terms of a percentage of rake paid, either contributed or dealt. stars not only does not feature this model, it seems to decline requests to state its model in these terms.
I dont know what you mean by industry standard but lets look at the 3 or 4 major sites of the past couple years:

Stars - Elaborated VIP system where all players are eligible and RB% must be calculated accordingly to volume of play, to put it simple.

FTP - Rakeback of 27% for some players, a special bonus issued at the end of the year to others that werent able to get it plus a eleborated iron man system. RB% must be calculated accordingly to volume of play and daily schedule. Moreover isnt a straight forward add-up system since iron man and other bonus hits the MGR. By some reason that escapes me completly there are people around arguing that this is simplier... right!

IPoker - The third major site is a network of skins where the "rakeback" word is prohibited but they have elaborated VIP systems similar to Stars/Iron Man and once again true RB% must be calculated accordingly to volume of play and schedule. Its not exactly the same at every skin but the major ones have similar VIP systems (even if with different RB% figures for the same play).

Party Poker - The other "third" major site (its somewhat a tie with ipoker, they are disputing the third place in terms of traffic) is the one less known by me (never played there in fact even if I started playing poker 6 years ago when Party Poker was the major site then). But as far as I know they workjed out recently a VIP system that resembles the one that Stars had already. Although maybe simpler (or at least seems so at first glance) and they explicity talk about % of rakeback at the related web pages. But, in essence, is the same think: you got the money from redeem bonus and from converting points in cash at different rates depending on your level, basically the same thing that happens at stars.



Now, back to that so spoken industry standard...

Last edited by ant___z; 01-14-2010 at 09:53 PM.
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01-14-2010 , 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by terp
for a fair comparison to FTP, numbers should be done using a dealt model
Stars system is a dealt model, all the math presented here and on other similar topics are dealt model based. What are you talking about?
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