Of course they're gonna cry and whine, Stars have the best software, support and traffic so I doubt regs WANTS to quit for a worse site.

Exactly.

Most regular players are obviously losing a lot with these changes, are any players actually gaining anything ?

ie stakes/games/spazz vpip stats

I'm not disagreeing, I'd love to see a cap on the # of tables you can play. It just galls me to see these tardbots complaining when they've had the chance to be able to make a good living without putting an ounce of intellectual effort into what they do.

Obviously massively scummy move by Stars and they know that the 24tabling monkeys aren't going anywhere...

i dont get pokerstars logic.... do a change that pisses so many players off right when ftp is about to reopen... especially since x% of ppl on stars now would rather be on ftp and only went to stars because everywhere else is ****. all this does is give ftp opportunity to win players over

It seems to me that stars are just gonna try and make as much $ as they can before facebook/zynga come along and take all their customers.

So their not gonna be interested in the long term state of the game.

f'd up for sure, better to play on some other sites and get 35% rb than this bs.

Well that's one way of looking at it but yeah these players don't give a damn if they lose money or break even during the year as long as they make their $100k and once they have taken off how much they have lost then they will usually show a profit. They just leech off of everyone else who pays rake whilst they nit it up. The old/current system is just unfair.

With regards to the maths then yeah you could view it that way for sure. If you worked a normal job and made $50k salary and your boss walked in and told you to take a $20k pay cut would you do it or would you just go get antoher job? It's just not going to be worthwhile to a lot of these guys to try for it next year.

Some will be able to adjust. Chicagojoey was mentioned earlier. He is a good example of a player who will win no matter how many tables they play.

If Stars can get rid of this misplaced entitlement that the nits have with regards to rb then that's a good thing. BB/100 should be money made at the table not money made in rb.

I see this as the effort from PokerStars to make profit to payout the DoJ of United States, cant see another reason to simultaneously increase rake and decrease rakeback.

But, this will kill some variants in the process or at least will make the traffic much lower once a bunch of players realize they can beat the game anymore or, even worst, go broke.

I have doubts that PS will get its aim of increasing returns in the long run cause, unlike other games that involve gambling, a lot of poker players play it cause they beat the game and won't play it anymore once they dont...

Maybe I should have elaborated more.

If you look at their decisions purely from a business perspective, I wouldn't know for sure how to judge it. Their short term profits are going to increase but this change will contribute to a decline in the long run. With 10-2x% being paid back less overall, players will be pushed over the line from continuing to play on to just quitting (at least eventually).


But more importantly, this is not a business that just sells a product. It's about a game which many people value and enjoy. Whether or not poker should be considered a sport, in that regard it's quite similar to one.

While it's not directly their responsibility as a business to preserve and develop online poker in a positive way (even though it should be in their best interest ...), it's surely something we should be concerned about.

I'll believe it when I see it. I don't see people leaving stars over this anytime soon.

All I know is that my BR is still locked up at FTP and everyone who played on stars was fine. That is priceless and I don't see people throwing away that security to go play on some shady site as a means of protest.

Not sure you've been reading the leg forum lately, but you should be praying for poker not to be considered a sport...

/off topic

Hi. So SNE is worth about $100,000. But don't you say its not a very smart idea to try and get it if one loses like $70,000 to get it? I mean, thats a TON of work just for $30,000. I could see a person doing it and lose say $30,000 and then get the $100,000 and making $70,000.... but isn't $30,000 net profit not worth it for that amount of work? I know SNE takes a tremendous amount of time even for a nit. Does anyone know what on average a SNE loses a year? I read most are just trying to breakeven for it and b/e for $100k is certainly great. But i see guys like Spacygravy who is an sng player make it and he wins a good amount of money before even making it. So its very rare for a SNE to win money overall not counting SNE?

Also... isn't stuff like the $5200 WCOOP seat and a $10k live event factored into SNE? I assume they can sell these for cash right? Because if they can't... this type of person might just net profit $10,000 cash, and have 2 seats worth $15,200 for tournaments where its usually dead money if they don't play tournament and have experience right?

I was just a SN but to those who are SNE... you don't make $100,000 at the end of the year right? Like when i was SN, i would just buy the vpp milestones and then once i had enough FPP, i buy the $4000 bonuses along the way. But for SNE, its very similar to SN where you just buy $4000 bonuses along the way right? Or do many of you never buy and just do it at the end of the year? I also read that when you get those $5200 Wcoop ticket and 10k live event, they are only give once you make SNE. Can you explain this part?

Thanks!

rich get richer

You may not see it for a while but it will happen immediately and row, some will play less, some will play at other sites who wouldn't have. Clearly many will return to FT that will be more than it would have been. Even a small incease in their player base will strengthen the competition and allow them to encrosch on Stars' territory further.

It was worth a great deal, it will be worth less now because Stars has clearly changed. Greed and/or incompetence impact all areas.

Once a site can increase their share of the rake while claiming its just redistribution amongst players then why would you trust them much on anything else?

THIS!

And the most funny thing is they say: "OMFG i raked 100k" when infact they have just sat at 24 tables folding like drooling mongoloids

Guys - I think chezlaw's comments are interesting because he has really been on their side and defended them against some previous unpopular decisions before. Remember a couple of discussions with him where I was quite critical and he made some good points in their defense.

This is a multi-year SNE here (4 years? 5??) who is annoyed by their behavior as well. And I think Stars should take note. One of the most loyal players and defenders of previous issues is using terms like "screwing their players."

and what did u exactly do?? play 1 or 2 tables... so what? it takes alot of effort to put in millions of hands.. and you diss? what a dick!

Generally, even only the 'presence' of a ****ty competitor is good and needed. Most of us (including me) disliked FTP for a bunch of reasons. And we (unfortunately) turned out right at the end. But the moment FTP was screwed (and screwing everyone in the process), I was sure it's as bad as Black Friday itself. Not only because people got some serious money blocked but also for the industry.

Look at the market guys! Not even one site that you can compare to horrible FTP and comfortably say that it's 2nd best after PS, it's an 'alternative'. These changes are like the disasters you see coming in real life but can't face them and feel disappointed at the end. The moment FTP was gone, I think almost all of us (at least those with half a brain) knew today was coming sooner or later.

While I don't think online poker will die instantly and making good money is still possible for almost every decent player, let's not forget that there will be a dead end sometime in the future with things going worse and worse every day. Just think about everything that happened since the 'boom'...

Personally speaking, I'm happy for the time I spent as an online full timer (last 20 months) as it was the period of my life (financialwise-despite not being too good of a player- and freedomwise) but am sad for being WAY too late as visionary people had enough time to nearly secure their life from this. If a beginner would ask me whether to stick seriously with online poker or not, I could tell nothing more but "There's still some money in it. Take as much as you can before it reaches a point where it stops to make a difference from a everyday job".

Ah, I nearly forgot... I promised to myself that I won't insult anyone on their PTR walls in the new year. But since it's not 2012 yet and since this is not PTR, everyone thinking that these 'changes' will do good to online poker is a ****ing brainless idiot, period!

Stars, I can't even play on your site anymore. But I do care about online poker in general as well as acknowledge the possibility that maybe I will get to play on your site in the future. Stars sets the standard in online poker and they can continue to do so regardless of climate change IF they don't blow it.

I could not more strongly recommend you reconsider these changes that have upset so many of your most loyal players. I don't know why you would want to give your players reason to shop for other sites, but you are doing so to an alarming degree.

The approach to your customers is very much what got your business to where it is in the first place. The changes to this approach is what will lose that status for you.

Yeah sngs are a different kettle of fish. They pay the same amount of rake as every other sng player so they don't leech off of other people like the ring game grinders.

I asked for a list of sne screenames in another thread to have a look at some SNE ptr's and nobody gave up any names, I only found this one without going looking for it. I suspect, and I may be wrong, that the majority of them are losing players before SNE bonuses.

I don't know the ins and outs of the tickets so can't answer the other part of your question.

Is there any thoughts on the reason for doing this is when they bring in their "rush" style game then it won't just be a turbo folding nit fest? I have no allegiances to stars so am just throwing this out there as it was the most popular form of cash game on FTP and probably will be on stars when it happens. Maybe if they had implemented both at once it wouldn't have been so bad, just saying.

Sigh, theres MMD trolling again.
You cherry pick, I'll cherry pick

[IMG][/IMG]

#1 player at 200nl stars this year in $$ won pre rakeback, 13/10 nit. 24 tabling SNE.Do you want him pplaying 12 tables at an 18/15 style? He will crush you (oh wait I forgot you dont play on Stars)

[IMG][/IMG]

24 tabling SNE last year. Last few months of this year he decided to play less tbales and not pursue SNE. Do you want him playing less tables?

For every person you pick that are losers, I can pick 2 that will tear up the games. No one is saying that everyone will become a superstar, but they will absolutely improve. IF they improve an extra .5ptbb/100 that will make the games tougher. DUCY? Would you rather have a 1 ptbb/100 loser at your table or a 1.5ptbb/100 loser?

FYI, the person you pointed out went from immideately SS his entire career to 24 tabling FR midstakes with zero 100bb stack experience, prior to this year he had no FR experience, bad example to pick out

lol this is the same person who was mentioned the other day. Is there nobody else?

I don't have a list of players but you obviously do so post them so we can make our own mind up instead of asking me to name some first when you know I don't know any.

Again, because I disagree with you I am supposedly trolling. Such a pathetic argument.

Omg that 5player 50% rake increase... What a supersneaky lame way to screw players.
I can understand the rest, but thats one step too far!

Nice way to screw table starters Pokerstars, you thought of that? Ill make sure that im not playing 3handed and 5 handed ever again. And so will most of the regs. Fu rake, its going to be hu, 4 handed or 6handed+. Im sure all will agree.

This post is a huge joke, right? Because I am nearly certain I know the player this graph belongs to, and he is the absolute opposite of a nit. Hell, he may be the laggiest high volume grinder at my stakes.