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Old 03-18-2013, 07:56 PM   #751
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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Originally Posted by GioCanHelp View Post
Tournament play does not clear your bonus at this time. I invite discussion of whether tournament play should count to clear bonus and promotional winnings. If you do not play tournaments now are you going to play if doing so would help to meet your play through requirements? We want to know how players feel about this.
We already discussed that on a previous page and its standard on every other poker site that the tournament play counts towards clearing bonuses and has to be considered as rake.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:59 PM   #752
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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We already discussed that on a previous page and its standard on every other poker site that the tournament play counts towards clearing bonuses and has to be considered as rake.
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Old 03-18-2013, 09:33 PM   #753
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

I agree that tourneys should count like rake but i do not agree that every other site has done it that way, or that it counts the same amount as rake
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:57 AM   #754
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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The play through requirement is found in the terms of service, promotional pages and has been mentioned in this forum on numerous occasions for a very long time.

Tournament play does not clear your bonus at this time. I invite discussion of whether tournament play should count to clear bonus and promotional winnings. If you do not play tournaments now are you going to play if doing so would help to meet your play through requirements? We want to know how players feel about this.
Yes, it is discussed here frequently but most players on PPN never get here. It is fine to list it in the the Terms of Service but how many people really read them until they have a problem? I never read them until the discussion on play through came up. The web pages have issues with some being available and others unavailable so why would I go looking for anything there?

Maybe it is just me but if you call a game a "freeroll" and put up a prize pool for it, requiring someone to use the money in other games makes the money no longer "free". I understand the reasoning though. That being said, I think the play through requirement should be included in the tournament lobby either on the first window or under the information tab at least, not buried in the ToS or some other obscure web page that few read. Yes, maybe it should be our responsibility to read all of these things but the more hoops you require your users to jump through in order to make sure your site is for them, the less likely it actually is they will give it a try.

Not sure if I would play any more if the play through requirements were met through tournament play but I think it is the right thing to include it anyway.

Okay, so I played the $2.00 + $.50 rebuy/addon on Sunday night. I did an early rebuy for $2.00 and an addon for $2.00. Now I have $6.50 invested. I finished 3rd and received $13.00. Is all $13.00 free and clear at this point because I have had other cashes in this tournament in the past? Or because I have so much in freeroll money, is the $6.50 I spent to be in the game still tied up and only $6.50 free of the play through requirement?
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:03 AM   #755
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

Speaking of pages not working....

I logged in, clicked on the GAME tab, then the RAKE INFO tab, and this is what I got:

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Old 03-19-2013, 10:36 AM   #756
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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Yes, it is discussed here frequently but most players on PPN never get here. It is fine to list it in the the Terms of Service but how many people really read them until they have a problem? I never read them until the discussion on play through came up. The web pages have issues with some being available and others unavailable so why would I go looking for anything there?

Maybe it is just me but if you call a game a "freeroll" and put up a prize pool for it, requiring someone to use the money in other games makes the money no longer "free". I understand the reasoning though. That being said, I think the play through requirement should be included in the tournament lobby either on the first window or under the information tab at least, not buried in the ToS or some other obscure web page that few read. Yes, maybe it should be our responsibility to read all of these things but the more hoops you require your users to jump through in order to make sure your site is for them, the less likely it actually is they will give it a try.

Not sure if I would play any more if the play through requirements were met through tournament play but I think it is the right thing to include it anyway.

Okay, so I played the $2.00 + $.50 rebuy/addon on Sunday night. I did an early rebuy for $2.00 and an addon for $2.00. Now I have $6.50 invested. I finished 3rd and received $13.00. Is all $13.00 free and clear at this point because I have had other cashes in this tournament in the past? Or because I have so much in freeroll money, is the $6.50 I spent to be in the game still tied up and only $6.50 free of the play through requirement?
Any money accrued from any other means is yours.Only the amount youve won in the freeroll has a play thru req.

Free roll money is still "Free" money,except that it needs to be used a another "free roll" of sorts in ring game cash play for it to convert into withdrawable funds.100% makes sense from a site owners pov.
What good would a free roll be to a site that just gave away money for no chance of earning a nickle?
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:00 AM   #757
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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Any money accrued from any other means is yours.Only the amount youve won in the freeroll has a play thru req.
Before Sunday night's games I had $379 in my account. Most of that is free roll money. If I sign up for the $2.00 + $.50 rebuy and spend $6.50, from which side of the ledger is that money taken? The $13 I won is now free and clear according to what you wrote but is this correct?


Quote:
Free roll money is still "Free" money,except that it needs to be used a another "free roll" of sorts in ring game cash play for it to convert into withdrawable funds.100% makes sense from a site owners pov.
What good would a free roll be to a site that just gave away money for no chance of earning a nickle?

I understand but if I walked into a casino and they gave me a ticket for some kind of free roll gambling, a cash voucher, chip, whatever, they know I can just convert it to cash and do whatever I want with it.

The free roll is to entice new users to try the software/site. It holds no value for regular users who already know the ins and outs. By requiring new users to play through they don't bother with it, that is, if they know of the requirement and I bet most don't.

Free rolls are advertising money. The hopeful return is that more people sign up, try the site, then come on 2+2 or some other forum and give a good review. Maybe it costs $10-20,000 per year in giveaways but that should be peanuts for a site planning on a long run.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:09 PM   #758
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

I thought of another example while out walking the dogs.

Let's say I build up $300 in free roll money. Over the next week or two I play and lose all but $6.50 in tournament buyins. Now I take the last $6.50 and buy into the Sunday night $2.00 + $.50 rebuy/addon including a $2.00 rebuy and a $2.00 addon, effectively zeroing out my account again. I get lucky and win. My account is now $40.

I take that $40 and go on a heater over the next couple of weeks and get my account back up to $300, all of it in ring games or buyin tournaments, no free roll money. Is any of this money available to me since I never cleared my original play through?

Last edited by SouthernPott; 03-19-2013 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Yes, it is an extreme example but hardly unlikely in online poker.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:46 PM   #759
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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I thought of another example while out walking the dogs.

Let's say I build up $300 in free roll money. Over the next week or two I play and lose all but $6.50 in tournament buyins. Now I take the last $6.50 and buy into the Sunday night $2.00 + $.50 rebuy/addon including a $2.00 rebuy and a $2.00 addon, effectively zeroing out my account again. I get lucky and win. My account is now $40.

I take that $40 and go on a heater over the next couple of weeks and get my account back up to $300, all of it in ring games or buyin tournaments, no free roll money. Is any of this money available to me since I never cleared my original play through?
Im 99% sure that in that extreme instance,Its YOUR money after a non frre roll money win.
Im pretty sure its kept track off differently.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:49 PM   #760
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

If u have $300 in (non played thru) Free roll money and buy into a cash ring game for the full amount and were to double up to $600 in ONE hand,That 300 profit is YOUR money.The initial 300 would still need to rake enough $ to clear though.

Just wanted to express that clearer than my prev post incase it wasnt comprehensible
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:23 PM   #761
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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Im 99% sure that in that extreme instance,Its YOUR money after a non frre roll money win.
Im pretty sure its kept track off differently.
I would hope it is kept track of separately but again, we are talking about online poker, and expecting things to happen the way we wish them usually finds us posting about sites "stealing" our money.

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Originally Posted by hankwhite69 View Post
If u have $300 in (non played thru) Free roll money and buy into a cash ring game for the full amount and were to double up to $600 in ONE hand,That 300 profit is YOUR money.The initial 300 would still need to rake enough $ to clear though.

Just wanted to express that clearer than my prev post incase it wasnt comprehensible
That makes sense of course.

Taking your example then, what if I lose $300 after I win $300 bringing me back down to $300 total. Then I win $300 again. Did I lose the uncleared free roll $300 or the cleared $300 and do I now have $600 I can withdraw or only $300?
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:24 PM   #762
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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I would hope it is kept track of separately but again, we are talking about online poker, and expecting things to happen the way we wish them usually finds us posting about sites "stealing" our money.



That makes sense of course.

Taking your example then, what if I lose $300 after I win $300 bringing me back down to $300 total. Then I win $300 again. Did I lose the uncleared free roll $300 or the cleared $300 and do I now have $600 I can withdraw or only $300?
Im assuming that once u lose the "Free roll" money any new winnings (Not free roll) are not considered Play thru required
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:28 PM   #763
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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Speaking of pages not working....

I logged in, clicked on the GAME tab, then the RAKE INFO tab, and this is what I got:

On the Game tab you want statistics/rake statistics
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:21 PM   #764
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

SouthernPott: I'm not a great player so I believe in working freerolls, bonuses, rakeback and whatever promotion I can find to make a profit playing break even poker. If that means playing whatever cash games, sng's, or tourneys the site wants me to play I do it.

7 years ago you could play dozens of sites that offered great ways to earn promotional money. Back then you could play freerolls 24 hours a day, but i would always read the terms of service, many times you had to make a deposit before making a withdrawal. Those days are long gone and they aren't coming back.

If you don't plan to follow the rules then just consider it recreational play. Since you stubbornly refuse to play the cash games the site wants you to play I find it hard to sympathize that you can't run off with free cash.

I have always considered you a forum friend so i'll be happy to play you in a tourney, cash game or whatever. I would like to see this network grow. If you aren't willing to get on the tables, whether its tourneys or cash games or whatever, then you aren't helping to give the appearance of traffic that any site needs to attract players.

If you can build your free $300 bankroll to $500 playing tourneys then you can withdraw $200. Still not a bad deal. Please don't whine that a site that isn't making money won't just give you some without strings attached.
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:33 AM   #765
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

So $2 raked in cash is any different than $2 raked in a tourny? This site amazes me,why this is even a rule or even needed to be discussed is absurd. Rake is rake,come on get with it PPN.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:29 AM   #766
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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If you don't plan to follow the rules then just consider it recreational play. Since you stubbornly refuse to play the cash games the site wants you to play I find it hard to sympathize that you can't run off with free cash.
I don't stubbornly refuse to play but my preference is the tournaments. I'm not wanting to run off with any free cash but if there are strings attached then it is not free. If I am paying rake into a tourney it should be included in my play through in my opinion. You did your due diligence and read the ToS. I didn't. I don't know that I have ever read the ToS at any site enough to know about play through requirements. I don't take issue with the rules but I think they should be placed in plain sight so those of us that are not as well informed will know in advance.

Quote:
I have always considered you a forum friend so i'll be happy to play you in a tourney, cash game or whatever. I would like to see this network grow. If you aren't willing to get on the tables, whether its tourneys or cash games or whatever, then you aren't helping to give the appearance of traffic that any site needs to attract players.
You and I both know I have been at the tables but my appearances are limited. It isn't my job to be there 24/7 but I applaud you for putting in a better showing.

Quote:
If you can build your free $300 bankroll to $500 playing tourneys then you can withdraw $200. Still not a bad deal. Please don't whine that a site that isn't making money won't just give you some without strings attached.
If my statements or questions have been interpreted as whining I apologize because that is not what I intend. I too want to see a better site and I feel that if I put forth my opinions in a public forum others will take an interest in how the site is run and improve it.

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So $2 raked in cash is any different than $2 raked in a tourny? This site amazes me,why this is even a rule or even needed to be discussed is absurd. Rake is rake,come on get with it PPN.
What, you didn't read the rules? Yeah, sadly they are treated differently at this time. I would like to think this is more of an oversight because I can't see why rake is treated differently.

So I tried to log in this morning so I could try and find the rake statistics:



But I'm still not whining.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:32 AM   #767
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

Just tried logging in too.Same error message.

Maybe theyre updating something....but prob not
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:11 AM   #768
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

Indy, I posted the following for you earlier and this was mostly what I was interested in hearing about regarding the rake. If anyone else has any suggestions on how they would use the $300 in order to clear the play through I am open for the help.

Quote:
Speaking of the rake rate to clear money, I have $300 or more in freeroll money. I don't really understand how the rake ratio works out and you seem to have a firm grasp on it. How may hands, hours, days, weeks, whatever would it take to clear that money so it is no longer freeroll money? Not sure if I am asking the question clearly so hopefully you can fill me in. I'm sure it depends on the game stakes and table but I'll let you give me some examples if you would be so kind.
This was the answer I got from Gio, which while informative, wasn't what I was looking for.

Quote:
Congratulations on your freeroll success!! The clearance rate for clearing your winnings for withdrawal is only 1:1. That means for every one dollar of rake you pay you clear one dollar for withdrawal. The minimum withdrawal by Western Union is $200.00. You can keep track of your rake paid over the current month and the two preceding months by clicking Rake Statistics on the Game menu in the main lobby window. As you say, the rate at which you clear your winnings depends on the type of games and stakes you play. The play through requirement is found in the terms of service, promotional pages and has been mentioned in this forum on numerous occassions for a very long time.
I understand from what we have previously discussed that it clears on a 1:1 ratio and I understand that means if I am in a hand that is raked for $.10 then $.10 just came off my tab. So then I have to clear $299.90 after.

I was really hoping you, INDY would chime in and say I need to do the following to clear the money.

1) Play 2 tables at a time of .05/.10 limit hold 'em or play one table of .10/.20 Omaha
2) Play the 6 man tables or 10 man tables because they rake differently than the HU tables.
3) You will need to play approximately 10,000 hands (or 20k, 30k, 40k hands) at this level to complete the requirement.

Yeah, I am too lazy to figure it out on my own. Not really but as there are others here who seem to have a better understanding of the optimal way to play, I would rather defer to their judgment.

Last edited by SouthernPott; 03-20-2013 at 10:11 AM. Reason: [B]P.S. I STILL CAN'T LOG IN![/B]
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:36 AM   #769
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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Indy, I posted the following for you earlier and this was mostly what I was interested in hearing about regarding the rake. If anyone else has any suggestions on how they would use the $300 in order to clear the play through I am open for the help.



This was the answer I got from Gio, which while informative, wasn't what I was looking for.



I understand from what we have previously discussed that it clears on a 1:1 ratio and I understand that means if I am in a hand that is raked for $.10 then $.10 just came off my tab. So then I have to clear $299.90 after.

I was really hoping you, INDY would chime in and say I need to do the following to clear the money.

1) Play 2 tables at a time of .05/.10 limit hold 'em or play one table of .10/.20 Omaha
2) Play the 6 man tables or 10 man tables because they rake differently than the HU tables.
3) You will need to play approximately 10,000 hands (or 20k, 30k, 40k hands) at this level to complete the requirement.

Yeah, I am too lazy to figure it out on my own. Not really but as there are others here who seem to have a better understanding of the optimal way to play, I would rather defer to their judgment.
All those reasons are why youve never seen my name in the free roll
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:36 AM   #770
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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All those reasons are why youve never seen my name in the free roll
Actually, I have seen your name in a PPN freeroll. GOTCHA BEING HYPOCRITCAL!
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:09 AM   #771
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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Actually, I have seen your name in a PPN freeroll. GOTCHA BEING HYPOCRITCAL!
Impossible
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:54 PM   #772
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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Impossible
no big deal, i'm just sayin'
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:42 AM   #773
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

mistaken post
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:05 AM   #774
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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So $2 raked in cash is any different than $2 raked in a tourny? This site amazes me,why this is even a rule or even needed to be discussed is absurd. Rake is rake,come on get with it PPN.
For awarding status points its usually treated differently on most online poker sites.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:33 AM   #775
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Re: *** Official Poker Pros Network Support and Promotions Thread ***

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For awarding status points its usually treated differently on most online poker sites.
If you would, please elaborate. If I pay $2 in rake in a tournament buyin and $2 in rake in a 6 handed cash game, how is this treated differently for awarding status points? By status points, you mean Frequent Player Points or however the customer loyalty points are labeled?
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