Not to stop the hate train, but won't an introduction of a Rush Poker equivalent help make up for the VPP/hour losses under the new WC system?

I may be doing it wrong but everytime i look on ipoker there's about 5tables running.

ur calcs seems wrong, pokerstars has a good explanation for it

http://www.pokerstars.com/sites/vpp-changes/

o yea its gonna take a bit to adjust moving from the biggest site in the world, to a ****ty network.

eitherway, in summary, this is a ****ty system. expect to play 25-30% more hands for the same SNE if ur a standard TAG.

as if SNE wasnt hard enough

im also gonna miss out on the protest cuz i havent relocated yet. sry guys

based on the pt3 stat i got slightly more with WC at SSNL(last 20k hands)
and only about 5% less over a big sample

nits will take a huge hit, normal players who put in a reasonable amount of money postflop will see 5-10% less at most

Hi guys, I'm trying to convince PS Steve to include me in the talks about the rake/VIP issues.

So, here's my background, and point of view, and why I think you'd like me to represent our collective interests.

I achieved Supernova Elite in 2009/2010, and will be going for it in 2012 regardless of what the rake/VIP status is. I'm a mid/small stakes full ring player. I was a part of the shortstacker/ratholing discussion in Monaco in 2010, and believe I was a big part of Stars adopting cap games because of the way I presented my arguments.

Personally, I think that the VIP system should be switched to Winner Take All (WTA). In my opinion, it is the only true fair way of dealing with the situation. Stars has made it very clear that the previous "Dealt" method is not an option. So at this point, we have Weighted Contributed (WC), unless we can convince them of a better solution. I believe that WTA is a better solution for the majority of us, if not all of us. If I represent our interests, I'd like to present a balanced opinion from players here, including players that would rather see WC, or another option that isn't on the table at this point (some sort of hybrid solution).

If any of you have any questions/comments/suggestions on how to talk about this, I'm open to hear them. If you would like to see me speak on our behalf, it would be helpful if you could let Steve know.

Thanks for reading.

Steve,

I am one of the highest volume grinders on your site. I earned SNE this year on an abbreviated playing schedule due to Black Friday. Prior to yesterday’s annoucenment I had big plans for my play on Stars in 2012. In light of this, I hope you will take the time to read this post.

What is meant by rake balance? Ambiguous phrases like this tend to scare people who make their living at the mercy of Stars’ rake structure and VIP program. Which games does Stars feel are raked too high? Which ones should be raked more?

That is nice to hear, but we were given no breakdown of how specific games and typical regulars at those stakes would be affected. To say “most players” in this sense does not apply to most people reading this forum or going for Supernova+. “Most players” play microstakes; so that statement doesn’t allay any fears.

This line was frustrating to read. No Stars reps have been in these forums to clarify things or provide additional information. It is abundantly clear that numerous players asked for explanations in these forums. Stars was utterly mute on the issue. All the players had to go on was a chart with some examples that didn’t give a full representation of how our rake would be affected based on the different games we play. I’ve read that sentence several times and shake my head every time trying to comprehend why you wrote it. I don’t mean that disrespectfully, I’m just being honest.

So, you are claiming that the proposed rake structure would have been an improvement for players. When some players on an internet forum voice displeasure and confusion, no one from Stars came and explained the changes. You mentioned that there were many inaccuracies in the numbers that some people posted. But you didn’t come in to the forum and correct any erroneous claims. Stars just took it’s proverbial ball and went home.

If the changes would help the players, why not show us how? People are working hard writing postgres scripts, custom PT3 and HEM forumlas, and doing all kinds of other number crunching to try to figure out what this all means. Stars hasn’t assisted us at all. Why not? Many people’s livelihoods hinge on these types of decisions. I know you understand this as I read that you are a former grinder yourself. Why not allay people’s fears by giving us more info or at the very least staying in communication with us?

Again, I never saw a “dialogue” here in the first place between Stars and the players. I would be shocked if any reader of these forums felt that way.

I think the majority of people (not all) have accepted that the dealt method is here to stay. However there are no offsets to compensate for the extra money that PokerStars will be taking out of the games. When Full Tilt Poker switched from dealt method to weighted contributed they created the "Black Card" program to offset the negative impact the change had on it's most valued players. If a site like FTP is willing to do that for it's most valued players, then I would be surprised if PokerStars would not do something similar.

I imagine you would say the new rake structure was meant to be the offset the players are seeking. However, the players (justifiably) aren’t going to blindly accept that without some evidence. Since Stars’ is so confident the new rake structure is better and is unwilling to give any evidence, why not just let it happen and prove to the posters in these forums that they are wrong?

I know lots of readers are frustrated with language like a “benefit to a large number of players.” Who are these players? Are they 2cent/4cent bronze stars? Are they $2/4 limit grinders? Are they 25/50 CAP regs? The concern amongst players is obvious: many believe that some recreational players will see a marginal benefit, but the real winner will be PokerStars who will end up raking even more from the poker economy.

I understand it must be tilting for you to read these forums. I imagine you and your colleagues believe Stars made a good-faith effort to help out and everyone is still complaining. If that is the case then please communicate with us more. After your initial announcement I only saw you reply once, and that was to cancel part of the plan. I guarantee the players would be much more at ease with any changes if we felt Stars were actively working with us, rather than imposing things from afar and then merely observing the ensuing forum madness.

If you’d have me, I’d be happy to come to the Isle of Man if for no other reason to have a beer with the guy who is in charge of the doomswitch.

Thanks,

Duckslayer2k

I think everyone can agree WC is the better way to go, but not adding anything to the VIP level to offset the amount of money that is being grabbed by PS is just a slap to its loyal fanbase.

People uprooted their lifes,left their friends and families to continue to play on Pokerstars, and PS rewards this by cutting nearly everyones salaries to make more billions in rake for themselves. They should be ashamed.

This 100%, at least make 6 max multiplier 6 for ****s sake.

Can someone bring me up to speed. I decided to stay away from thread most of day.

So the only change for 2012 is the switch to WC? The other changes have been canceled? And they haven't thrown us even a tiny bone to compensate for the WC switch?

just caught myself up with the updates, so i'll update you.

Steve makes a post explaining why he thinks the rake changes (including the 5handed change) would reduce rake as a whole. Then he states due to 2p2 outcry about how this will actually increase rake, pokerstars as decided to forgo the rake changes they thought would reduce the rake as compensation. why they didnt just remove the 5handed change which was the biggest problem, i don't know.

The change to WC will stand with no other form of compensation.

Good thoughtful post from Duckslayer2k, I hope the Stars reps take the time to read it fully and take it on board.

nah bro we dont agree.

Their not going to be able to come up with a fair compensation in the next 30 hours ... their only options is to scrap the plan all together.

Great post from duckslayer, nice for someone else to put my thoughts in to coherent sentences!
I can just picture the team of pokerstars employees frantically trying to figure out a way of generating a lot more profit for the company whilst passing it off as "improvements" to the reward scheme.

The Top 50 Yearly VPP totals are available here.

252 players have earned over 1,000,000 VPPs in 2011.
273 players are on pace.

3,075,245 Bjoerni89
2,581,939 azntracker
2,250,043 AironVega
2,186,009 Berndsen12
2,048,423 1Bunn
1,738,045 xxXFITEXxx
1,685,293 Isildur1
1,577,715 acoimbra
1,500,088 showtime
1,495,242 fricirics
1,492,016 kala77
1,450,869 chisness
1,383,909 Odd_Oddsen
1,378,662 Bruut99
1,303,014 Die_Broke999
1,259,487 ocropTi
1,250,056 willyBeer22
1,250,023 PedroKL
1,248,693 poker_in_pb
1,130,218 Xereles
1,121,630 pistons87
1,090,801 oscarleon
1,061,661 twin-caracas
1,051,182 horvyjoe
1,038,531 Duckslayer2k
1,038,084 anguila
1,028,971 Tpirahna
1,028,616 ShandeC
1,025,750 k345
1,021,747 TenerifeBel
1,018,487 dealer666
1,017,985 Alphafoil
1,016,255 thecooler992
1,015,383 dombomain33
1,014,653 innerpsy
1,011,722 Brokerface
1,009,709 El_Cañonero
1,009,629 spacegravy
1,004,352 titcar
1,004,296 jamesgav19
1,002,506 neomorf
1,002,493 badblood1
1,002,183 gutter23
1,001,025 ILS007
1,000,385 pappadogg
1,000,314 PokerPro333
1,000,090 antchev
1,000,055 GodlikeRoy
1,000,048 2w392y41ur
1,000,043 sundalyonly
1,000,039 house_advntg
1,000,037 YaDaDaMeeN21
1,000,034 Wet-DreaMer
1,000,033 11_king_11
1,000,025 sly caveat
1,000,020 _salaz4r_
1,000,013 Jackal69
1,000,004 MelowYellow
997,689 krissyb24
995,427 JTDStreet

---PACE--- 995,091

991,929 MeleaB
989,867 AndrewBoccia
971,626 phasE89
958,317 JoeIngram1


Please email vipclub@pokerstars.com to have your screen name added to the list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLk4Ia0otko


you would be better off reading the last couple of posts and change something or next year you are going to post something like:

lol

x-POST

Don't you remember what players wanted BEFORE the changes

this is what they wanted :



and now that WC has been implemented what you guys are basically saying is :

KEEP THE WC (STARS PLEASE **** US UP) but make the rake 4.5 as it was (BUT PLEASE DECREASE THE LEVEL U **** US UP WITH ABOUT 10.1%)...


I ASK AND STRIKE FOR RETURNING DEALT METHOD! if not I STRIKE TO BE COMPENSATED FOR ANY % that I'VE BEEN RIPPED OFF..


OPEN YOUR EYES PPL.

Tim, the only change was WC. You were a supporter of WC, why are you unhappy?

Great post Duckslayer.

It's always nice to have somebody contribute in a possitive clear minded way.

Appreciate the effort, and think it summed everything up perfectly.

nah, i was always for keeping everything like it is. from my experience this year games were alot better than last year
and especially during teh last 2 months there were some insanely good games. SO WHY CHANGE A PERFECTLY RUNNING SYSTEM. They
obv changed bc they want to make moar money (prolly bc due to Black Friday and all the different country versions which
cost some money to set up and they make less of the players bc of taxes and legislation). I mean it was mindblowing for me
that there came this announcement out of the blue.
So I never was for WC but they made very clear that they not gonna keep dealt. And if you want to make things moar "fair"
(fair is a stupid word anyways... is it fair to make 6 figs a year playing cards, is it fair to pay 10s of 1000 for playing
a computer game, is it fair to abuse gambling addicts etc) but let's assume we talking about fair than WTA is the only way bc
no matter how you put it - the winner pays the rake. But it is pretty obv that they are not in favour of this system either
bc really good players getting heavily rewarded while especially bad rackback pro's getting screwed. With WC they have the
complete package for themselves meaning that everyone who makes a living out of poker gets ****ed and basically every casual
player gets a little bit moar and due to their VPP/FPP System they make a ****load in the meanwhile bc of multipliers...

to make it short, I'm still in favour of WTA but I hardly doubt that this system is coming (at least it is not coming now)
so my understanding is that we have to fight for something which might be happening:

- reward 7VPPs across the board for each $ paid (OR AT VERY LEAST 6.5)
OR
- decrease rake to 4% across the board
OR
- decrease rake to 4.5% across the board and introduce new limit dependend rake caps for everything up to NL1k

even from a business perspective in my opinion it would be a massive move from Stars to decrease rake to 4%.
They would be by far the "cheapest" site, alot of grinders would come, winners would make 20% moar, losers would
lose with a slower rate, you could advertise it "there is no other room where you pay fewer rake online" etc.
I mean, if they want to have teh ****ing monopol than they should play it right imo.

All they did over the last years was increasing the effective rake while games getting harder to beat for everyone.
Very few people complained about how VPPs get awarded and out of the blue: "we want to make things moar FAIR 5.5VPP/$"
They don't care about fair, all they care is about money. And this year the same ****. I don't know a single player
who ever complained about the dealt method and out of the blue "weight contributed bc it is moar FAIR" Again, they want
money.

While I can understand that the goal of their company is to make money I cannot understand how you can screw up deadlines
and announcements every ****ing time. SNE is a 12 months yearly program, so tell us about changes LATEST end november and
not ****ing 3 days before NEW YEAR. That would be FAIR. Or if you want to change **** every so often JUST MAKE SNE A
3MONTHS ROLLING PROJECT (which would be much better anyways imo). Then you can make announcements whenever you feel like it
bc it is only 3 months.

Speaking of me I did SNE 2009, 2010 and 800k this year (and this only bc they screwed up with the announcement in case of the
Buyin Changes which came to late and so I was playing FT first 3 months of the year). I was really planning to do SNE next year
and play a ton but there's no way I'm going to play 2mio++ Hands from NL200 and Midstakes to make it.
In 2009 I barely played moar than 2mio hands to reach it exclusively at NL200 FR and now I'll have to play moar even though
I'm playing SH and FR combined and a ton of midstakes? This is just a joke so I will enjoy my time abroad and then reevaluate,
The good thing not being SNE next year is I don't have to bother with doing 50k points each month to maintain it which makes
me smile...


sorry for tl;dr

Thats nice and all. Where is the "dialogue" you claim to be having with your players? Jokerstars gonna joke

Tim Stone, you sir are an idiot. You were supportive of WC. What changed? You are also one of the worst nits/bums around!