We haven't heard from JimRob in over 24 hours. Good to see he was prepared to share his "proof" when he first posted. It never changes with these guys. Absolutely nothing to offer but bs.

All the stats that I've checked in my 325,000 hand database match up to where they should be within acceptable bounds.


I've never seen a 6 figure database of hands from Stars where they didn't.

I take true the implication of your post. PM me your details or w/e you're comfortable with if truly interested. I'm open and glad to have a discussion on the topic. I plan to be there Fall 09.

interested in 2 things in this thread:

1. HHs
2. Proof of the claim that PS has refused to be verified by Ecogra, or that Ecogra has been denied to verify them (by Ertai)

i simply agree it all makes sense and this isn't a conspiracy, this is actually happening. of course their are some here that win, but the majority lose.

PokerStars Game #20878693067: Tournament #111760372, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2008/10/02 19:57:16 ET
Table '111760372 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: cgrland (9284 in chips)
Seat 2: AAisOveRaTeD (12460 in chips)
Seat 4: salg20 (8589 in chips)
Seat 5: pixie78 (6415 in chips)
Seat 6: 0309PJM (17960 in chips)
Seat 7: SPIRIT-ACE65 (3910 in chips)
Seat 8: Sawed Off TM (3318 in chips)
Seat 9: the Hoss48 (5564 in chips)
cgrland: posts the ante 50
AAisOveRaTeD: posts the ante 50
salg20: posts the ante 50
pixie78: posts the ante 50
0309PJM: posts the ante 50
SPIRIT-ACE65: posts the ante 50
Sawed Off TM: posts the ante 50
the Hoss48: posts the ante 50
pixie78: posts small blind 400
0309PJM: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sawed Off TM [Kh Kd]
SPIRIT-ACE65: folds
Sawed Off TM: raises 2468 to 3268 and is all-in
the Hoss48: calls 3268
cgrland: calls 3268
AAisOveRaTeD: folds
salg20: folds
pixie78: folds
0309PJM: calls 2468
*** FLOP *** [4h 9h Jh]
0309PJM: bets 1600
the Hoss48: raises 646 to 2246 and is all-in
cgrland: calls 2246
0309PJM: calls 646
*** TURN *** [4h 9h Jh] [4d]
0309PJM: bets 1600
cgrland: calls 1600
*** RIVER *** [4h 9h Jh 4d] [6h]
0309PJM: bets 1600
cgrland: calls 1600
*** SHOW DOWN ***
0309PJM: shows [Js Kc] (two pair, Jacks and Fours)
cgrland: shows [Th Ts] (a flush, Jack high)
cgrland collected 6400 from side pot-2
the Hoss48: shows [Qd Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
the Hoss48 collected 6738 from side pot-1
Sawed Off TM: shows [Kh Kd] (a flush, King high)
the Hoss48 collected 13872 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 27010 Main pot 13872. Side pot-1 6738. Side pot-2 6400. | Rake 0
Board [4h 9h Jh 4d 6h]
Seat 1: cgrland showed [Th Ts] and won (6400) with a flush, Jack high
Seat 2: AAisOveRaTeD folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: salg20 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: pixie78 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: 0309PJM (big blind) showed [Js Kc] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Fours
Seat 7: SPIRIT-ACE65 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Sawed Off TM showed [Kh Kd] and lost with a flush, King high
Seat 9: the Hoss48 showed [Qd Ah] and won (20610) with a flush, Ace high

Only 99,999 HH's to go now Sawed-Off or was that the proof we needed?

no i was just posting a sick rediculous loss the other night. i had like 3 others in that same $1 donkament, but they wern't flushes.

lol at me having K of heart and 1 guy having the A of heart and getting the flop and river.

i hate my fing luck.

Very helpful. Perhaps post it in BBV next time.

On second thoughts perhaps this entire thread could go there.

sawed-off -
1. Those beats happen all the time...to players everywhere...on Stars and other sites as well as live. Pretty standard really. Do you play much poker?

2. Do you really think Stars is intentionally manipulating the cards in a $1 tournament?

i don't play $1 tourney's much though.

but i have noticed that rediculous 1 outer's etc. and certain cards coming, making it not seem very random as frequent as i see it.

it's not only when i lose, but i see it happen to alot of other player's as well.

true any 2 cards will do, but i've seen it favor underdogs or very weak hands vs strong ones.


i just think my luck is bad mainly on pokerstars.
i'm not gonna scream rigged.
know what i'm gonna do?
quit playing there and let other's do what they want.
it's my money.

i play live poker and have played on full tilt. have not lost as bad in either as i did on stars. i feel alot more comfortable playing on fulltilt to.

i didn't start running like crap or really noticed any of this until i cashed out 2 months ago, i only been playing on stars for about 2 weeks since then.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.414% 57.28% 00.14% 785129 1873.33 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 23.294% 23.16% 00.14% 317434 1873.33 { AhQd }
Hand 2: 19.292% 19.16% 00.14% 262571 1873.33 { ThTs }

holy crap! you lost when that should only happen 43% of the time! that's like, what? 1 in 1000?

I'm sure you already know this but just in case you don't...the hand that you posted is not an example of being "one-outered."

Do you have any HH's where you actually were one-outered (since you say it happens so frequently there)? Just curious.
It has long been my contention that a significant percentage of those complaining about "too many one-outers" are using that term inappropriately to describe losses in which there were more than one out to beat them.

In the hand that you posted on the flop:
The AQ guy had 11 outs (8 other outs and 3 aces) and 2 chances to hit one of them.
The two other opponents had 4 outs between them (KJ guy could hit another J, TT could hit his set) and 2 chances between them as well.
And that doesn't even count the runner-runner outs they had as well.

So that's a total of 15 outs between your 3 opponents with 2 cards to come. That's a lot of dodging for your KK to make it through.
Not a bad beat at all. You only had an overpair for crying out loud.


I just ran that hand through twodimes.net just for kicks.
You were actually an underdog when you got in all in on the flop.
You had 41.5% chance of winning the hand (successfully dodging all those outs).
The Qd Ah guy was 42.3%.
The TT and JK guys were 8.8% and 7.4% each.

Kind of weird to look at that hand as an example of a really bad beat when your chances of winning when you got it all in were as low as freaking 41.5%

daycare - nice try and obviously the same idea I was coming from.
But you missed one of the hands.

that's how i role. or that's how pstars rolls me.

i requested full hand history from michaelj on here going back like maybe 2=3 weeks or when i just recently deposited. i will go through them at post.

i understand what i mean when i say 1 outered and i wasn't referring to this hand. i'm talking like when some pulls a better set over mine on the turn or river or something like that. thanks for analyzing that hand for me. and i'll post other's and let you decide if i just run bad or what.

come on man. the bad beat started when 3 hearts hit the flop. not an ace but nother rediculous way of losing by a runner flush.
if no hearts came though it probably woulda been an ace or straight.

the lesson in this is KK preflop is an obvious underdog to AQ and should be folded pre.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.977% 49.73% 00.25% 540077 2680.75 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 06.634% 06.39% 00.25% 69362 2680.75 { KcJs }
Hand 2: 18.284% 18.20% 00.09% 197646 924.25 { ThTs }
Hand 3: 25.105% 25.02% 00.09% 271713 924.25 { AhQd }


holy crap! you lost when that should only happen 50% of the time! that's like, what? 1 in 1000?

you're not factoring in the fact that 3 hearts hit the flop one of my opponents just happend to have the ace flush over my king when the river turned another heart.

according to daycareinferno i was a huge favor preflop.

now can you imagine if this was a cash game and where stars could benefit by making the ace high heart draw chase a flush? when i'd obviously be 3x betting or so trying to get it to fold, because i know it's gonna hit, and so does the guy holding the ace heart?

or a straight, or two pair, or trips, or quads on board, or one of a million other ways to lose when you're up against 3 hands. oooo you lost a coinflip vs. a field in a wacky way. that's crazy stuff right there.

i lost to 4 hearts though. sure that's completely random.

No, you probably aren't running bad. You likely aren't a very good player.
Up to you whether you want to accept that possibility or not.

LOL at the bad beat in that hand happening because the flop came with all hearts. OMG..that never happens!!

Just for kicks I ran your KK vs. the 3 other hands BEFORE that horrible flop.
You were exactly 50% to win that hand.
50-freaking-percent.
That's all. You were not a gigantic favorite.

If you can tell how often the 'underdog' hands are supposed to win on Stars then just go ahead and play those instead.
But you can't. You just think you can.
You lose a hand and whine about it being a bad beat when it simply isn't.

I expect that people who whine about the bad beats on Stars actually HAVE a bad beat happen to them. This wasn't a bad beat.
You had KK and it lost.
This will happen over and over to you in every poker venue you can find.
I don't know how to explain it any better than that but this is just how it is.

The majority of players lose money at poker. You are one of them.
The majority of players think they are winning players even though they are not. You are one of them.
Many players believe that every time they lose it was bad luck but every time they win it was because things were running 'correctly' or it was due to their skill. Not sure if you're one of them or not but it seems likely.

sawed-off -
Do you seriously believe it's a big deal or super-unusual event to lose on a 4-flush board?

If you play long enough on Stars then you will see that in these flush-draw situations sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn't.
I have played over 1 million hands on Stars this year and have them all in my Pokertracker database (I'm not kidding...1 million hands...a few others on here have that many or more as well).

You have probably played 2,000 hands or something.
The flush draw hits a couple times and you freak out about it. Yet there is nothing unusual happening...except your ability to understand poker.

i don't think i'm a bad player. so nice try trying to turn my posts into that.

obviously you run good dude, you are the one sucking out consistently i'm the one getting bad beats dealt to me, and therefore i suck at poker. but why do i win live? why do i break even? i'm so horrible on stars.

it's no big deal because i'm not trying to whine about it. you obviously have not losts like i have. or say you do, then say you handle it very well, because you are a "good player."

i'm done. OP please post the HH's.