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Old 01-08-2012, 12:16 AM   #126
VicVegas007
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

I signed up to betfair, never made a deposit. When I won some money in a freeroll they asked me to send in some ID to verify my age or they would lock my account. I sent in my ID, my account is open and I am still winning money in their freerolls. I want to play on their site so I follow their rules.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:33 AM   #127
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
To a certain extent, I understand where OP is coming from; he's concerned about the security of his information. But when you deposit your money on a poker site, you usually need to be willing to place a little trust in them that they will keep your information private. The way OP describes it, if everything is accurate, it sounds like a pretty straightforward case that shouldn't be too difficult to straighten out. But you have to remember that poker sites have certain security procedures in place for a reason, and right or wrong, they probably put people into certain wide-sweeping categories, as they're not going to have the resources to look at every single security issue in great detail. Just because OP deposited with cash doesn't mean all is well. What if it was counterfeit? What if he's laundering money from a drug business? Of course I'm not suggesting either of these things are the case, but you have to look at the bigger picture. And they may not have some magical amount of money where they decide that any deposit over $500 could be money laundering, but everything under $500 isn't, unless they make more than 1 deposit a week, or use different locations to disguise their deposits, etc., etc. Something about OP's situation likely triggered a security flag, and now this is the procedure they make everyone with that flag go through.

OP, I'm curious if you've tried civilly finding a resolution to this. No offense intended (as we all have weaknesses - goodness knows I do), but I have a hard time seeing you being capable of doing this. I don't know you, but having read your threads and the way you're whipping off replies to everything as quickly as you can, all the outrage you express, resorting to calling them thieves when you can't come to an agreement, etc., makes me think you might not have the temperament for it. But I would hope that a calm exchange with someone there explaining your concern about the ID requirements and asking if there was some other way to resolve this, might get you somewhere. And I saw the posts where you mentioned suggesting other ways of satisfying their requirements - I'm just wondering how amicable those conversations were from your side. Perhaps you were a perfect gentleman articulating your points politely, and they just won't work with you, IDK. It sounds like you've arrived at an impasse and no one is going to convince you to do anything more from your side. Hopefully that changes, and good luck to you.
Ty for you well wishes. To address the first paragraph. It should have been very easy to take care of. But they insist on verifying something for which they cannot verify. I call BS

To address the second. I have tried for months being nice to no avail. I could post all the emails,or pm's to prove this, but it would be a giant wall of thread that, I think no one wants to read.

At what point do I have the right to be mad? I don't understand how I have become the wrathful whatever. I think I have been as nice as possible, all things considered and ninety percent of what I am saying are in the form of questions. That very few are even trying to answer. Intertops won't answer any of them.

The reason for my rapid responses is that most of what I am responding to is not hard to rebut. It's tough to justify taking ones property against their will. But many have or are trying. To me this is comical and sad. Did the First In guy that exposed FT, UB .........have to go through what I have had to??Could I have been more well spoken? Sure. Could I have done something in a different manner? Absolutely. In any case it is what it is.

If you follow the logic of the haters ITT. I guess everyone in the computer security threads are all paranoid, tin foil hat wearing morons. The first thing I learned from those sticky's is that you don't go throwing around your info willy nilly. Its the same reason I lock my car door, you don't want to make it easy for someone to screw you. If you don't think its necessary to lock your door, fine. But don't name call me(not saying you did Bobo).

Can anyone have their identity stolen or their car broken into? Yes, the point is you don't have to make it easy for the would be crooks.

Last edited by newschool; 01-08-2012 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:38 AM   #128
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

I know I always give my money to people I consider potential crooks.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:49 AM   #129
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Originally Posted by VicVegas007 View Post
Sorry you are wrong about their TOS, I already posted this but because it proves you wrong you ignored it. Here it is again, this time read it:

Let's look at this again:

SECURITY CHECKS, REVIEWS AND RELEASES: INTERTOPS reserves the right to verify Your identity and the fidelity of the information YOU HAVE SUPPLIED by making various security and ID checks. If You fail or refuse on request to comply and sign a security request from INTERTOPS, INTERTOPS reserves the right to void Your account.

There are trying to verify your identity and are asking you to supply ID.
Sigh,, I guess you are making legal determinations? Are you qualified to do so? I have already run this by my lawyer and we read it quite differently then you.

SECURITY CHECKS, REVIEWS AND RELEASES: INTERTOPS reserves the right to verify Your identity and the fidelity of the information YOU HAVE SUPPLIED by making various security and ID checks.

YOU HAVE SUPPLIED^ Says it right there. I have not or did not have to show photo or # to sign up. I DID NOT SUPPLY THIS INFO. If I did not supply this then what are they "verifying it against"??????Answer this one please!!!!!!

And again I offered to verify in person to WU, MG, my bank. I also offered to have a signed notarized letter stating the fidelity of my information.

My problem is that this company wants to gather this info under false pretenses. For what reason??? For security?? Who's?? I don't feel very secure with them holding my property against my will. But this whole "verifying" thing is clearly BS and their only rational for keeping my property.

They failed to provide full disclosure in that they did not "need" this info to take your property. But they"need" it to give you your property back???
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:56 AM   #130
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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I know I always give my money to people I consider potential crooks.
Sigh.. Unfortunately I was tricked, lacked full disclosure and went on reviews by members here at 2+2. That they were trustworthy.

Fool me once shame on you, you won't get a chance to fool me again.

Are you running out of straws yet?
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:58 AM   #131
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Originally Posted by newschool View Post
Sigh,, I guess you are making legal determinations? Are you qualified to do so? I have already run this by my lawyer and we read it quite differently then you.
No you haven't.
Quote:
SECURITY CHECKS, REVIEWS AND RELEASES: INTERTOPS reserves the right to verify Your identity and the fidelity of the information YOU HAVE SUPPLIED by making various security and ID checks.

YOU HAVE SUPPLIED^ Says it right there. I have not or did not have to show photo or # to sign up. I DID NOT SUPPLY THIS INFO. If I did not supply this then what are they "verifying it against"??????Answer this one please!!!!!!
Jesus Christ, dumb dumb. Let me try to break down that sentence that's troubling you one more time. Hopefully parentheses don't throw you off:
Quote:
SECURITY CHECKS, REVIEWS AND RELEASES: INTERTOPS reserves the right to verify (Your identity) and (the fidelity of the information you have supplied) by making various security and ID checks.
Does that make sense to you, or are you just going to change some words to all caps again?
Quote:
But this whole "verifying" thing is clearly BS and their only rational for keeping my property.
How do you know it's clearly BS? Maybe their regulator requires it, like the IOM does.
Quote:
They failed to provide full disclosure in that they did not "need" this info to take your property. But they"need" it to give you your property back???
How awful they'll take a fish's money right when they want to gamble, and not after making them wait for ID verification. I know I hate playing in games that aren't nit fests.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:01 AM   #132
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Originally Posted by newschool View Post
Sigh,, I guess you are making legal determinations? Are you qualified to do so? I have already run this by my lawyer and we read it quite differently then you.

SECURITY CHECKS, REVIEWS AND RELEASES: INTERTOPS reserves the right to verify Your identity and the fidelity of the information YOU HAVE SUPPLIED by making various security and ID checks.

YOU HAVE SUPPLIED^ Says it right there. I have not or did not have to show photo or # to sign up. I DID NOT SUPPLY THIS INFO. If I did not supply this then what are they "verifying it against"??????Answer this one please!!!!!!

And again I offered to verify in person to WU, MG, my bank. I also offered to have a signed notarized letter stating the fidelity of my information.

My problem is that this company wants to gather this info under false pretenses. For what reason??? For security?? Who's?? I don't feel very secure with them holding my property against my will. But this whole "verifying" thing is clearly BS and their only rational for keeping my property.

They failed to provide full disclosure in that they did not "need" this info to take your property. But they"need" it to give you your property back???
They want to verify the information that you gave them when you signed up for the account.

1.1.6 Intertops reserves the right to close the account of any customer at its discretion, especially if no valid identification documents can be provided.

This says it all. Altering your ID is not valid.

They didn't "take" your property, you voluntary gave it to them.

Called a lawyer? Man, I really feel sorry for you
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:11 AM   #133
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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No you haven't.Jesus Christ, dumb dumb. Let me try to break down that sentence that's troubling you one more time. Hopefully parentheses don't throw you off:
Does that make sense to you, or are you just going to change some words to all caps again?How do you know it's clearly BS? Maybe their regulator requires it, like the IOM does.
How awful they'll take a fish's money right when they want to gamble, and not after making them wait for ID verification. I know I hate playing in games that aren't nit fests.
First off stop with the dumb dumb sht. Who are you?

You never answered the question of what they can verify it against? If they do not have the info to begin with?? Answer- They can't, thats why its BS. Does the question throw you off? Or are you, in your words, a dumb dumb?

We can argue interpretations ad nauseum ad infinitum. Does not change the fact they are taking my property against my will. They did not provide necessary elements of a contract. FULL DISCLOSURE FROM THE BEGINNING!!!

Last edited by newschool; 01-08-2012 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:26 AM   #134
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Originally Posted by VicVegas007 View Post
They want to verify the information that you gave them when you signed up for the account.

1.1.6 Intertops reserves the right to close the account of any customer at its discretion, especially if no valid identification documents can be provided.

This says it all. Altering your ID is not valid.

They didn't "take" your property, you voluntary gave it to them.

Called a lawyer? Man, I really feel sorry for you
I did not give them this to sign up. So we are agree on this?

I did not alter anything. I know it is not necessary to need to database my personal info to send a check. When all my sign up info matched. When I still have the receipt of my deposit. When at NO time was I ever accussed of doing anything fraudulent. Nor have I done anything fraudulent. And to top it off I got their holiday flyer with my screen name on it. Telling me I can have a christmas bonus. If I send them more money. Guess they didn't need my photo to send that to my house? Or to give me a bonus if I sent more money. They don't need the photo to take it, just to give it back. How is this fair or forthcoming?

Now you are trying to further justify their theft by adding this. 1.1.6 Intertops reserves the right to close the account of any customer at its discretion, especially if no valid identification documents can be provided.

Well guess what? I still don't have my property so call it what you want.

I voluntarily gave it to them while lacking FULL DISCLOSURE on their part. Otherwise I would have never signed up
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:36 AM   #135
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Originally Posted by newschool View Post
I did not give them this to sign up. So we are agree on this?

I did not alter anything. I know it is not necessary to need to database my personal info to send a check. When all my sign up info matched. When I still have the receipt of my deposit. When at NO time was I ever accussed of doing anything fraudulent. Nor have I done anything fraudulent. And to top it off I got their holiday flyer with my screen name on it. Telling me I can have a christmas bonus. If I send them more money. Guess they didn't need my photo to send that to my house? Or to give me a bonus if I sent more money. They don't need the photo to take it, just to give it back. How is this fair or forthcoming?

Now you are trying to further justify their theft by adding this. 1.1.6 Intertops reserves the right to close the account of any customer at its discretion, especially if no valid identification documents can be provided.

Well guess what? I still don't have my property so call it what you want.

I voluntarily gave it to them while lacking FULL DISCLOSURE on their part. Otherwise I would have never signed up
You just signed up without giving a address, Country, name?

Did not alter anything? These are you words: "I was asked to send info to "verify" who I was. So, I sent everything in, that they asked for except for a passport number and photo, they were blacked out."

I didn't add anything, it's in their TOS.

"And to top it off I got their holiday flyer with my screen name on it. Telling me I can have a christmas bonus. If I send them more money. Guess they didn't need my photo to send that to my house?" - I really don't know what to say to this, this is beyond logic.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:41 AM   #136
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

I was just thinking of when I sent the funds at moneygram. I filled out the paper work. They then asked for ID, which I gladly gave. Why? because they were just checking the fidelity of the info and this matched. This was the same info that Intertops had and needed for the transaction to even take place.

Moneygram never asked to photo copy or database that info. Why? There was no reason.

So I have already been verified by a impartial third party. That me and Intertops had the exact same matching info. All this matches with what I signed up with. And with what I sent them.

Love to hear your thoughts on this.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:47 AM   #137
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Originally Posted by newschool View Post
I was just thinking of when I sent the funds at moneygram. I filled out the paper work and then they asked for ID which I gladly gave. Why? because they were just checking the fidelity of the info and this matched. This was the same info that Intertops got and needed for the transaction to take place.

But moneygram never asked to photo copy or database that info. Why? There was no reason.

So I have already been verified by a impartial third party. That me and Intertops had the exact same matching info. All this matches with what I signed up with. And with what I sent them.

Love to hear your thoughts on this.
So now your talking about moneygram??

You don't answer my questions and frankly I don't care. You won't listen to anybody who disagrees with you and you talk in circles. You are in for a hard life.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:04 AM   #138
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Originally Posted by VicVegas007 View Post
So now your talking about moneygram??

You don't answer my questions and frankly I don't care. You won't listen to anybody who disagrees with you and you talk in circles. You are in for a hard life.
Did I miss something? What didn't I answer? I don't know why you care so much, about this. You have made your feelings known. This last question wasn't directed at you.

Why so mad man? I am not your enemy. Calm down.

I hope my life will be less hard then it has been already. Sadly, I don't think that will be the case. I think, the craziness of this world is going to make everyone's life, exceedingly more difficult, in the near future. But that is for another thread.

I sincerely wish the best for you and yours though.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:05 AM   #139
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

Is the reason why you don't want to submit your ID because you're like 16?

edited to add: I've submitted ID to intertops, AP, tilt, stars, and many other places. It's super standard, I don't know why you're claiming it isn't.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:13 AM   #140
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Is the reason why you don't want to submit your ID because you're like 16?

edited to add: I've submitted ID to intertops, AP, tilt, stars, and many other places. It's super standard, I don't know why you're claiming it isn't.
This has already been talked about. If you have nothing to add please move on.

Hey I hear its standard to play in traffic...What are you waiting for!!!

You do what you want with yours. I do what I want with mine. Agreed?

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Old 01-08-2012, 02:33 AM   #141
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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First off stop with the dumb dumb sht. Who are you?
Do you reeeeeeally wanna know?
Quote:
You never answered the question of what they can verify it against? If they do not have the info to begin with?? Answer- They can't, thats why its BS. Does the question throw you off? Or are you, in your words, a dumb dumb?
You don't think there's a way to verify ID numbers and stuff?

What are these damn grocery stores doing with my ID? They can't verify it, it's a scam!
Quote:
We can argue interpretations ad nauseum ad infinitum. Does not change the fact they are taking my property against my will.
You gave it to them.
Quote:
They did not provide necessary elements of a contract. FULL DISCLOSURE FROM THE BEGINNING!!!
I'm willing to bet you everything they've "stolen" from you that you at some point clicked a check box agreeing to their TOS. According to their TOS, you have to provide ID to cash out.

GG.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:50 AM   #142
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

why dont u just do what they ask and get your money?

send in clear copy of your passport or drivers license and whatever, and if they ask you not to black something out, dont do it.

i play on tops and they have been nothing but great to me. i keep a fairly large amt of money on there and they send me max cashouts whenever i want. and no my identity hasnt been stolen or something because i sent them a DL or passport that didnt have info covered up.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:55 AM   #143
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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You just signed up without giving a address, Country, name?

Did not alter anything? These are you words: "I was asked to send info to "verify" who I was. So, I sent everything in, that they asked for except for a passport number and photo, they were blacked out."

I didn't add anything, it's in their TOS.

"And to top it off I got their holiday flyer with my screen name on it. Telling me I can have a christmas bonus. If I send them more money. Guess they didn't need my photo to send that to my house?" - I really don't know what to say to this, this is beyond logic.
Oh this is the not answering you were talking about. I must have missed it, as it was the last one on the page and was typing my question.
I did not mean to ignore you.

Yes I gave address,age,ect.....Just not the photo and #. Things they don't "need."
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:12 AM   #144
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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Do you reeeeeeally wanna know?You don't think there's a way to verify ID numbers and stuff?

What are these damn grocery stores doing with my ID? They can't verify it, it's a scam!You gave it to them.
I'm willing to bet you everything they've "stolen" from you that you at some point clicked a check box agreeing to their TOS. According to their TOS, you have to provide ID to cash out.

GG.
Yes I reeeeeally wanna know.

I don't know what grocery stores do with your ID. What does that have to do with this?

Yes I signed the agreement without them fully disclosing all relevant information. This was done on purpose by them as evidenced ITT.

Where you guys agreed. That the reason they don't ask for this in the beginning is to make it easier for them to take deposits. And that it would be harmful to their bottom line if they were to ask for it at sign up. Why?

Because people like me would have NOT SIGNED UP in the first place! Costing them money.

But lets feel sorry for the fictitious entity known as Intertops and it's bottom line? Let's not care about the customers? The ones that make up this forum? Without which there would be no internet poker.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:14 AM   #145
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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I was just thinking of when I sent the funds at moneygram. I filled out the paper work. They then asked for ID, which I gladly gave. Why? because they were just checking the fidelity of the info and this matched. This was the same info that Intertops had and needed for the transaction to even take place.

Moneygram never asked to photo copy or database that info. Why? There was no reason.

So I have already been verified by a impartial third party. That me and Intertops had the exact same matching info. All this matches with what I signed up with. And with what I sent them.

Love to hear your thoughts on this.
Anyone?
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:03 AM   #146
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

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I agree that it is bad for business not just accept random deposits from credit cards; however the site has made a business decision to increase its own liability to fraud (deeming that as a lesser evil than losing business). So, it's the site's responsibility to deal with the consequences of accepting a fraudulent deposit.
And this is how they've chosen to deal with it - security measures on cashouts that will aggravate a few people and possibly cause them problems like this thread.

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The way Intertops is handling this, they are just freerolling people (You can deposit any time, but if you don't jump through hoops, you can't withdraw).
I don't see the forums filled with people complaining they can't cash out from Intertops, so I hardly think this is being done to freeroll people. I'm sure part of the reason is that most people just go ahead and send the ID; the "hoops" here aren't really all that onerous.

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It's within their capabilities to transfer funds from his account to the same online wallet that he deposited from. Is there some jurisdiction where it is illegal for a business to return funds via the same method it received them, without verifying IDs?
Under certain circumstances, probably. If they're helping me launder money, either intentionally or through negligence, I would expect that they could be breaking laws or at the very least rules of their gaming license.

And what if they have reason now to suspect that he's underage? If he is, they already have a problem in having allowed him to deposit in the first place, and they'd clearly have to refund his deposit. But they wouldn't give him any winnings, and they'd want to know so he could be blocked from depositing in the future.

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1 Starting from the top. You say your not accusing me of fraud then at the end you say what if the cash was drug money or stolen???Clearly not the case.
I tend to put multiple replies in the same post, so I don't end up with 5 or 10 replies in a row as you do - I'm sorry if this is confusing you in some way. I suspect it might be, because this is the second time where you seem to have taken my responses to Kittens as some kind of accusation against you. Those were simply example of reasons they might have to check ID. I don't know anything about you, so I wouldn't know either way if you're a drug dealer or thief or not, but I have no reason to think you are.

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But many will keep trying to justify this theft, ransom, whatever word you want to use. Its the same thing they are not giving me my property against my will.
No, it's not. They've told you that they want some proper ID from you before they'll let you cash out, and you're refusing to provide it.

Quote:
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2 They are requesting the photo and # to "verify" something that they cannot actually verify.
I see what you're getting at here now, and it's an interesting point. Since they don't know what you actually look like, and I assume they don't have access to some kind of database that matches passport numbers with names, what can they verify? But short of meeting you in person and checking your ID, how will they ever be able to confirm with close to 100% certainty that you are who you say you are? All they can do is try their best. They probably feel it's harder for them to spot a doctored passport when you've obscured portions of it.

This leads me to a question, though. They'd have something to verify if they requested that you send them a picture of you holding your passport, which I've seen sites request before. How would you feel about that? It's more onerous on your end, but it would seem more "legit" going by your standards of having something to actually verify. Of course they would have no way of knowing that the person in the photograph is you, but it's one further step they could require you to take that would make it harder for you if you were trying to dupe them in some way.

In these days of smarter crooks with better ways to forge documents and deceive people, it gets harder for anyone to be 100% certain of someone's identity - actually, I don't think 100% is possible. They have to settle for as close as they can get. So if they have reason for concern, they're going to make you jump through more hoops. Are they being overly cautious with you? I have no idea, but it's certainly possible. That doesn't mean they're trying to rob you.

If Intertops had a reputation for leaking personal information, I'd understand your complaint. If Intertops had a reputation for denying reasonable cashout requests, I'd understand your complaint. If their request was something extremely unusual, I'd understand your complaint. But none of these things are the case AFAIK. So you need to make a decision. They are requesting ID from you that you seem uncomfortable with providing. You have to decide whether the possibility that they want your information to use for some nefarious purpose, which they don't have a reputation for doing, is of a greater concern to you than not getting your money back. If it is, then I guess you need to keep trying to reach a compromise or write the money off. But if you make that decision, it doesn't make them thieves. It's possible that they've been overzealous in their requirements for you to cash out, but that doesn't mean they're trying to rob you.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:45 AM   #147
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

lock it up.............he's had plenty of opportunity........you can't fix stupid.....
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:36 AM   #148
Clamper13
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by newschool View Post
They have clearly not provided full disclosure. One of three necessary elements to a contract. Without these elements the contract becomes void ab nitio
Or void from the beginning.
I'm not a lawyer, so please forgive my naivete. From what I gather, a contract can be reduced to two basic elements.

1. Mutual assent to create a legal relation upon acceptance of an offer.
2. The party accepting the offer receives something of sufficient value.

What value were you promised in return for sending them money?

What legal precedent establishes that full disclosure is required in contracts?

You are arguing that Intertops knowingly concealed a significant fact, to wit their policy regarding identification.

What legal precedent establishes that Intertops' policy is an unlawful interference to your right to privacy?
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:17 AM   #149
newschool
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clamper13 View Post
I'm not a lawyer, so please forgive my naivete. From what I gather, a contract can be reduced to two basic elements.

1. Mutual assent to create a legal relation upon acceptance of an offer.
2. The party accepting the offer receives something of sufficient value.

What value were you promised in return for sending them money?

What legal precedent establishes that full disclosure is required in contracts?

You are arguing that Intertops knowingly concealed a significant fact, to wit their policy regarding identification.

What legal precedent establishes that Intertops' policy is an unlawful interference to your right to privacy?
No offence intended. But you sound quite silly, and are just making stuff up.

There are three necessary elements to a contract. Contract law goes back for some time. It is not a new invention.

1. You need to provide Full disclosure. Why?? Because I could hide things from you or change things. Would that be fair?

2. Consideration. Which is the exchange of value. ie My money for a service or perceived benefit.

3. All parties must be of legal age and of sound mind. Why? Because it would be easy to trick someone underage or of lesser mindfulness.

Your interpretation of things, which you admittedly know nothing or little about, is a bit irrelevant. Don't you think?

If you would like to know more about law. I would suggest as old a copy of Blacks Law you can find.

GL

Last edited by newschool; 01-08-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:32 AM   #150
newschool
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Re: Intertops cashout issue?

Maybe this will help the haters understand where I am coming from.

This is part 2 of 3 but I would suggest all to watch the whole thing. This guy admittedly stole millions from people. By stealing info and scamming people. This is how he did it.

And you want me to trust the whole chain of command at Intertops? Every disgruntled worker there? Or like the video says, the trashman, truckdriver.... All of them would have access to all of your info.

To sell, to steal, to whatever. And I am crazy for not going along with it?LMFAO

Last edited by newschool; 01-08-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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