Standard response to crap like this:

If they gimmick the deal there are a lot of players watching them and a fair few have significant skills in the areas of probability maths and statistics.

Bottom line?

You gimmick the deal - you're gonna get caught - simple at that.

i am glad that was posted cos i was looking at all the suit K's coming out and....
well it looked alright to me,
but wasnt about to meself

How exactly do you get caught? Let's say they do gimmick a deal. How would they get caught? Would you know? Cause that's what your saying...

Now, I understand that it all affects you personally...but it doesn't have to. If you're a winning player you'll make money no meter what. Even when you lose you come back up...
But you're really saying that they can't gimmick a hand? How about 10 hands, or how about a 100... a 0.0001% of a million of hands?
Cause that's all it would take to restore balance. And they are experts of chances.
What are the chances of them ever getting caught with that? Close to zero?
And now you put that risk against the one that you will lose all your business, which is 100% eventually... that's a risk worth taking.

This is a serious question. Do you know how probability works and how things over large sample sizes should land within fairly specific margins? Can you explain how your theory would work to keep fish, but yet fail to be detected in very, very large sample sizes?

BTW, please explain how rigging 0.0001% of a million hands is going to keep enough fish around to make a difference.

Quantum Computing. Google is your friend.

Who are you directing this towards? You can't possibly be saying quantum computations are being used to rig deals..........

Well, first of all, I do believe most of you have far greater poker experience than I do, and probably posses much more mathematical knowledge than me. So I won't hold on to what I say too tightly.

But help me understand this. There certainly are good players that play with a constant ROI of +15-20%. And they can't play with that winning rate against each other. I mean most of that must come from playing the fish.
How can that be sustainable for a longer period of time?

given this is tk,
it is probably directed towards the Paper Work Reduction Act of 2009

juju
isnt it

So, are you saying there is a "need" to make a difference? They're just not doing it because its wrong and they could get caught?

Because 0.0001% or 0.01%, or1%, it's still more than none. And you're not gonna rig 29o Vs. T3o

You rig QQ and better. That way you can shift much more money with much less hands.

It's sustainable in the same way that Roger Federer won lots of tennis games. He was better than his opponent.

The same thing applies here. People win at poker over the long run because they are better than their opponents.

Roger Federer isn't limited by the amount of "play" he can get from his opponents.
Online poker is limited by the amount of money in play.

And I'm not saying it's unsustainable to keep winning over the long run. If you're better, you'll always win...the problem is, eventually you'll run out of opponents!
If you win with a constant ROI, and people do, that's a fact, than eventually you'll win everything there is to win. And if you throw in rake, the money pool is getting seriously shifted to one side, the winning side...

To that you add that good players do not quit easily, they take bad beats and shake them off, it's even easier to cheat them. So AA should win at a rate of 85% heads up, lets say poker room rigs a couple of them and for a winning player that rate drops down to 84.5%, who's gonna catch that...

for the most part nobody would notice.


just say tho if you were a poker room and did this you would be ridiculously stupid.

rake in rake for 100 years or a bit extra for a year before you get caught.

[QUOTE=JoeBlack16;20806703the problem is, eventually you'll run out of opponents![/quote]

People have been gambling since they learned how to count. Take a look at all those grey haired folks at the casino attached to the slot machines with their VIP cards. They're not going to run out of opponents any time soon.

You've come into this thread at a time when the more knowledgeable posters are tired of repeating the same lessons over and over again. Go back and skim through the thread. The topics you've brought up have been discussed many many times. There's lots of good information there, if you can ignore the insults that surround them.

Exactly!! So the slot machines are rigged to give back a certain percentage (and mind you its a pretty BIG %, like 98% or something) of its winnings back to the fish. To keep the fish around, and to not "run out of opponents". That's a fact, that's how they work. It's legal and regulated. And casinos are certainly not complaining, guess why? Cause it's the only way to keep the system sustainable.

Slot machines are programed to let the person win a bit (sometimes a lot) but overall they will lose. Bad beats perform the same role in poker.

The % of payouts for slot machines is regulated by law. In my country it is 98%. So over a certain period of time each machine has to payout 98% of its winnings back. No more no less.

And the casinos are not complaining because they know it will ensure that the system is sustainable. But that's the point, it is a rigged system, and it has to be, for it to be profitable.

It not very different in poker. You have two sides, good players and bad ones. The room makes money as long as its balanced. That means that no one looses too much. But once you have good players that have knowledge, patience and experience, that system has lost its balance because one side has an edge over the other one. And for that system to be somewhat sustainable, somebody has to reduce that edge to a sustainable level. For the system to remain profitable.

The math doesn't need to be complex. A poker room is one big tournament. Eventually, a good player with the biggest ROI is going to win. He is going to be the last man standing. There's no other outcome. Unless, you can reduce that ROI to a sustainable level, then, with some rigging the party can last theoretically forever.

Joe, Contact the FBI and/or the CIA. They are looking for credible people with credible evidence.

So is the Church of Scientology looking for people to believe 100% of what they tell them.

But it can't all be rigged, right?

Your concern is that the bad players will lose so much money that they'll stop playing forever. While undoubtedly some will, from what you know about the gambling industry, what makes you think that being a loser will dry up all the players? The gambling industry is full to the brim with losers. In most games its a virtual guarantee. And yet people continue to play....

It's sustainable because losers redeposit. Many, many recreational players can spend 5% of their income on poker entertainment forever.

I think you'll find that that's not strictly true.

The machines are designed (and the laws in most western countries written) so that the games have a natural edge to the house.

Think, for example, of a single-zero roulette wheel. On any spin, a player will lose, on average 1/37th of a bet (2.7%). It is quite possible that one particular roulette wheel will run hot for players, and another roulette wheel will run cold for players. There's no central management of the things that counts up how much each wheel has won, and lost, and tinkers with the results to achieve that.

Slot machines operate the same way.

Ok, so we're saying its not rigged at all. And we're 100% sure of that, even though its a business and all businesses try to cheat their customers for as much money as possible, but not online poker. Even though it's core is hidden away in remote places when laws cannot touch them even if, pardon me, even WHEN they get caught cheating and get caught covering up.
Its definitely not rigged at all, even though it would take only a click of a button to cheat somebody, even though it would take one, only one greedy programmer to abuse the system he created, and even though throughout history as soon as someone created a code, someone else cracked it... online poker rooms are 100% percent safe and fair...

What a bunch of fanatics we are. And what a great religion we have.

Nope. A roulette wheel is a mechanical device with fields arranged in such a way that over a long period of time the house has that small edge.
Slot machines are electronically programmed to give away 98% or so, of their winnings away every 15 or so days. That's required by country laws, and is accepted by the casinos because its still profitable, and it wouldn't be, if the machine had a bigger advantage.

There was this TV program I was watching recently ("Last American Cowboy") that follows ranchers in Montana. One of the ranchers had to delay selling his cattle so they were fed with hay that artificially raised their weight. When it came to selling the cattle, he could have taken advantage of their added weight to get a better price, but he told the seller and gave an appropriate discount.

Businesses will obviously strive to make the best deals that they can, but I don't believe that many "try to cheat their customers".