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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 04-17-2009, 03:56 AM   #2301
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by TeflonDawg View Post
Oh and a thought: In every facet of life, brilliant people will exploit any angle, moral or immoral in order to get rich. If online poker was rigged, there would be people algorithmically raping the RNG for money. There are way too many people superior in intellect out there that would've figured out the deal of the cards by now if it were not random.
And you, brilliant mind, think that if there would be people (maybe there is) who would know how to beat RNG, they would show up in this forum and say: "Greetings, fellas! We have found out how to beat RNG and we are willing to share this information with you our great poker buddies. If you want to earn millions and get rich here is what you have to do..." ?

If you would find that in cash game you play there plays bot, you would exploit his game and know exactly how he's playing. You could make money from him. Would you show up in this forum and say: "Hey, fellas, wanna make a buck? There's bot playing in 0.50/1NL and this is how he plays..."

People are not going to share ideas with others if they can make solid buck using them.
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Old 04-17-2009, 04:24 AM   #2302
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Thinking about quitting online poker

Hi everyone. I'm relatively new to P2P. I have been playing poker for about 5 years now. The stakes I play ranges. When I took my game a little more seriously when I first began, I used to play anywhere from 10-20 to 30-60. These days, I play for pleasure. What I can say is, among all my friends, I am the best poker player. There have been occasions in the past (4 years ago), I managed to parlay $100 deposit into $10-15k over a course of a week, typically playing limit hold'em.

I rarely play hold'em anymore. I generally play seven card stud, razz or 2-7 triple draw low ball these days. One thing I've been noticing is, the beats I'm getting online, just seem so unlikely. For instance, I can be playing razz and have a 8423 draw with three cards to come in a three way action against a rough T9 draw or a runner runner draw. Rough T9 takes down the pot because I make 8's full of 4, runner runner runner for the most worthless hand in Razz. I can be playing 2-7, probably my strongest game, pat a smooth 87 or 86, drawing 1-2 on the first draw vs. weak 3 draw and get beat by something slightly better after the third draw. Or with stud for that matter, just incredible bad beats. Now, I know swings come with the game of poker, but I do play a lot of poker at brick and mortar casinos and noticed that I don't get nearly as many bad beats as I do in online poker.

It has actually occur to me that, although the games may not be rigged per se, there is something definetely wrong with how the cards are being dealt. I have probably played 10k hands in razz and stud online on full tilt and pokerstars and I noticed that when I play razz i get dealt monster stud hands like rolled up, suited AKQ, etc (non-playable hands for razz) and when I play stud I keep getting dealt monster Razz hands. I also play a lot at casinos, proably 2k hand this year and I have never noticed what I've been noticing online. I also notice that bad plays tend to get rewarded online more so than at brick and mortar casinos.

I was wondering if any of you feel the same way here? To be very honest, I'm thinking about quitting online poker. I just feel that something about online poker is just not right. Any one on P2P also feel that there is something strange about online poker. My theory is this. What if the card shuffling is rigged? Brick and mortar casinos have prop players they pay to get games going. How can anyone here rule out that some of the players online are not actually real players but bots controlled by the site to provide action for games that are going on. Maybe, when these bots are in a game, the odds are shifted slightly in their favor to win. It only takes 60/40 adjustment in odds to make it a completely losing proposition for real players. Just a thought because I really don't trust online poker these days.

FYI: I get bad beats at casinos too, but not as often as I do online. I understand it comes with the game, but when u are 70/30 favorite or better going into last card or last draw, you should not be sweating too often that you are going to lose. It happens, but not often.
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Old 04-17-2009, 04:25 AM   #2303
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

tl;dr
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Old 04-17-2009, 04:27 AM   #2304
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by lenasrokas View Post
And you, brilliant mind, think that if there would be people (maybe there is) who would know how to beat RNG, they would show up in this forum and say: "Greetings, fellas! We have found out how to beat RNG and we are willing to share this information with you our great poker buddies. If you want to earn millions and get rich here is what you have to do..." ?

If you would find that in cash game you play there plays bot, you would exploit his game and know exactly how he's playing. You could make money from him. Would you show up in this forum and say: "Hey, fellas, wanna make a buck? There's bot playing in 0.50/1NL and this is how he plays..."

People are not going to share ideas with others if they can make solid buck using them.
You do not understand.

If someone found a way to predict the deal they would be able to make massive gains and their results would very quickly show up and alert both the sites and other users to the fact that something was amiss - in much the same way that the AP scandal was unearthed.
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Old 04-17-2009, 04:42 AM   #2305
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

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Originally Posted by kck_shuffle View Post
I have probably played 10k hands in razz and stud online on full tilt and pokerstars and I noticed that when I play razz i get dealt monster stud hands like rolled up, suited AKQ, etc (non-playable hands for razz) and when I play stud I keep getting dealt monster Razz hands.
this is probably good evidence of your own selective memory more than anything else. if they were going to screw with the deck, they would do the opposite of this, DUCY? (i'll tell you Y: they'd want to create action, not make you be card-dead)
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Old 04-17-2009, 04:49 AM   #2306
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

meh, your attitude is all wrong, the sites aren't rigged
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Old 04-17-2009, 04:55 AM   #2307
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

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Originally Posted by kck_shuffle View Post
FYI: I get bad beats at casinos too, but not as often as I do online.
Indeed, but you're also seeing/playing a lot more hands per hour online also so it's only natural that you'll see more beats, coolers etc.

Add to that selective memory and it's very easy to convince yourself something isn't right, particularly if you're running bad for a few k hands.

If the sites are rigged, there hasn't been any proof yet and there certainly is people out there who are trying to find evidence of it by testing millions upon millions of hands.
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Old 04-17-2009, 04:56 AM   #2308
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

tldr for sure.
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:05 AM   #2309
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

Sn on sites? I play hs Razz so we've probably played, I can tell if you've been running bad or not.
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:05 AM   #2310
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

Online sites are definitely rigged, today I had KK all in vs. KJss preflop.
Flop came J34ss and somehow I managed to win with my KK.
However I was 80% sure, I would lose, when I saw the KJss preflop and 100% sure when the flop came.

so how come with 0% to win, I managed to scoop the pot--->RIGGED
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:06 AM   #2311
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

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Online sites are definitely rigged, today I had KK all in vs. KJss preflop.
Flop came J34ss and somehow I managed to win with my KK.
However I was 80% sure, I would lose, when I saw the KJss preflop and 100% sure when the flop came.

so how come with 0% to win, I managed to scoop the pot--->RIGGED
Lol.

One time I got it in AIPF with AA.

I won.

True story.
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:09 AM   #2312
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

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I'm relatively new to P2P.
stopped reading here
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:25 AM   #2313
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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You do not understand.

If someone found a way to predict the deal they would be able to make massive gains and their results would very quickly show up and alert both the sites and other users to the fact that something was amiss - in much the same way that the AP scandal was unearthed.
They would be able, but would they?

You think people don't learn from previous mistakes? If you would found way to predict the deal, you would insta crush games or you would gain profit slowly? AP scandal is nice example where people fail when they have unfair advantage, but they don't know how to use it right. What if superusers would gain profits slowly. What if they would develop their style to beat games and would be playing till know and noone would know? Greed is what made them fail.

Let's say someone who plays cash games has found out some patterns which happen from time to time. By looking at flop, at how many people are envolved in pot, by his holding etc. he can predict exact turn card. When turn card is dealt he can predict exact river card by looking at board, at how many people are left in the pot etc. What he could gain? He could win big pot or escape from loosing big pot, right? Let's say from time to time he wins big pot where he wouldn't win it without his knowledge (for example he wouldn't chase his draw) and from time to time he escapes from disaster loosing big pot where he has something massive. Before he found out way to predict deal he was making 1500$ in month playing cash games, now he makes 2000$-2250$.
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:35 AM   #2314
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by lenasrokas View Post
They would be able, but would they?

You think people don't learn from previous mistakes? If you would found way to predict the deal, you would insta crush games or you would gain profit slowly? AP scandal is nice example where people fail when they have unfair advantage, but they don't know how to use it right. What if superusers would gain profits slowly. What if they would develop their style to beat games and would be playing till know and noone would know? Greed is what made them fail.

Let's say someone who plays cash games has found out some patterns which happen from time to time. By looking at flop, at how many people are envolved in pot, by his holding etc. he can predict exact turn card. When turn card is dealt he can predict exact river card by looking at board, at how many people are left in the pot etc. What he could gain? He could win big pot or escape from loosing big pot, right? Let's say from time to time he wins big pot where he wouldn't win it without his knowledge (for example he wouldn't chase his draw) and from time to time he escapes from disaster loosing big pot where he has something massive. Before he found out way to predict deal he was making 1500$ in month playing cash games, now he makes 2000$-2250$.
Those are actually very fair points.

They do not, however, address the issue that no one has come up with any evidence whatsoever that the deal is predicatable.

You could come up with all sorts of ways that people could use 'special powers' to filch money but unless you have some evidence that this is taking place suggesting there is any serious chance it might be is little more than paranoia.
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:54 AM   #2315
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Those are actually very fair points.

They do not, however, address the issue that no one has come up with any evidence whatsoever that the deal is predicatable.

You could come up with all sorts of ways that people could use 'special powers' to filch money but unless you have some evidence that this is taking place suggesting there is any serious chance it might be is little more than paranoia.
I see your logic is simple. Can i ask you a question? Imagine situation, you spend your summers living outside city in your grandparents house which is located in little town. One day you take a walk in woods and find old left gold mine. You walk into it and see that there's something shiny on one of walls, you come closer and you can clearly see that it's gold. You take one of those hammers with which gold is digged and start to smash wall, it collapses and you see tons of gold worth million.

Next day you arrive in town and ask some old town folks that it's might be possible that old gold mines has gold in it, folks just say: "do you have any evidence, there's serious chance you might be a little paranoid, maybe you see what you want to see, but actually there's nothing" You think for a moment and say: "Oh, i was just wondering, never mind, it's just stupid idea".

If you would find out gold in old gold mines would you show up and say: "OMG, i found gold in old gold mines, come on all people, let's go we will be rich!" and throw around gold ? I doubt it.
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Old 04-17-2009, 05:55 AM   #2316
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

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Lol.

One time I got it in AIPF with AA.

I won.

True story.
make a thread imo
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Old 04-17-2009, 06:10 AM   #2317
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

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Hi everyone. I'm relatively new to P2P
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I managed to parlay $100 deposit into $10-15k over a course of a week, typically playing limit hold'em.
Forget poker, quit life
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:04 AM   #2318
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I see your logic is simple. Can i ask you a question? Imagine situation, you spend your summers living outside city in your grandparents house which is located in little town. One day you take a walk in woods and find old left gold mine. You walk into it and see that there's something shiny on one of walls, you come closer and you can clearly see that it's gold. You take one of those hammers with which gold is digged and start to smash wall, it collapses and you see tons of gold worth million.

Next day you arrive in town and ask some old town folks that it's might be possible that old gold mines has gold in it, folks just say: "do you have any evidence, there's serious chance you might be a little paranoid, maybe you see what you want to see, but actually there's nothing" You think for a moment and say: "Oh, i was just wondering, never mind, it's just stupid idea".

If you would find out gold in old gold mines would you show up and say: "OMG, i found gold in old gold mines, come on all people, let's go we will be rich!" and throw around gold ? I doubt it.

So, have you found a goldmine ? ;-) If so, you could share it or smt .. I would keep my mouth sealed !
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:05 AM   #2319
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I see your logic is simple.
I always use the very simplest of logic when dealing with rigtards. Even then it usually goes straight over their heads.

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Can i ask you a question?
Feel free - I'm here to help.

Quote:
Imagine situation, you spend your summers living outside city in your grandparents house which is located in little town. One day you take a walk in woods and find old left gold mine. You walk into it and see that there's something shiny on one of walls, you come closer and you can clearly see that it's gold. You take one of those hammers with which gold is digged and start to smash wall, it collapses and you see tons of gold worth million.

Next day you arrive in town and ask some old town folks that it's might be possible that old gold mines has gold in it, folks just say: "do you have any evidence, there's serious chance you might be a little paranoid, maybe you see what you want to see, but actually there's nothing" You think for a moment and say: "Oh, i was just wondering, never mind, it's just stupid idea".

If you would find out gold in old gold mines would you show up and say: "OMG, i found gold in old gold mines, come on all people, let's go we will be rich!" and throw around gold ? I doubt it.
I think you believe you have come up with an analogy to what is being proposed here.

You haven't.

A better (though imperfect) analogy would be that there are a number of people who keep coming into the saloon and telling everyone that there are caves full of gold and that people are mining them and depriving everyone of their rightful share. And doing this despite never once having found any evidence that there is any gold in the area in the first place!
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:20 AM   #2320
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Maybe hes giving u a hint and hes makind thousands now. And comes here to lough from you once in a while ...
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:31 AM   #2321
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Unhappy Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I get your other points, but I'm confused by these. The court documents required Tokwiro to sever all ties with 88 current or former employees IIRC, and to make sure they had no further connection of any kind to the company and no access to anything. Also, Tokwiro sued for $81 million dollars and settled for $15 million, paid by the former seller of the company, plus about another $6 million that had already been refunded to players. All this is in official documents of the Superior Court of Ontario. And the court hired their own independent software auditor to review all the source code, databases, everything. Nothing dubious about that. I'm not defending UB, I just want to know the real facts so I went to the source. What did I miss?

Edit - it also says they refunded the money won in every hand ever played by the 88 identified cheaters, whether cheating occurred in the hand or not. So why "some of them" ?

Thank you weevil99

Say sorry now u uneducated buffon before i give you a royal canning

I said meny forms super users juicing the RNG accounts that are 100 percent certain to turn a regular rake ect ect....think before you flame

Last edited by hitman4hire; 04-17-2009 at 07:36 AM. Reason: is now staying on the fence for this 1 and did not mean just rigged RNGs
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:32 AM   #2322
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

imo online poker is rigged
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:33 AM   #2323
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Say sorry now u uneducated buffon before i give you a royal canning
Yeah, there's nothing worse than being dressed in robes and a crown and then squeezed into a tin can!

Quote:
I said meny forms super users juicing the RNG accounts trhat are 100 percent certain to turn a regulare rake ect ect....trhink before you flame
Wat?
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:36 AM   #2324
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I get your other points, but I'm confused by these. The court documents required Tokwiro to sever all ties with 88 current or former employees IIRC, and to make sure they had no further connection of any kind to the company and no access to anything. Also, Tokwiro sued for $81 million dollars and settled for $15 million, paid by the former seller of the company, plus about another $6 million that had already been refunded to players. All this is in official documents of the Superior Court of Ontario. And the court hired their own independent software auditor to review all the source code, databases, everything. Nothing dubious about that. I'm not defending UB, I just want to know the real facts so I went to the source. What did I miss?
To be honest, I stopped following the UB drama many months ago. It could be that what you've read in official court documents is true, although when there's this much money and corruption surrounding a case, the fact that they're statements from official court documents only gives them slightly more credibility than they'd have if they were press releases from the companies involved. In UB's case, I think most players who followed it closely tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to anyone who seems to be defending them as vigorously as you did in your post. I do, at least, although I usually don't bother posting about it.

UB and AP damaged not just their own reputations, but that of online poker in general. Their actions, statements, and behavior during and after their respective scandals were disappointing, to put it mildly. Major crimes were committed and no one has ever answered for them. It doesn't look like anyone ever will, and that makes players wonder if there is any jurisdiction in the world that has their back.

UB and AP do not deserve your defense, even when you're doing it as part of a response to yet another rigged theory.

That's just my opinion, of course.
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Old 04-17-2009, 07:41 AM   #2325
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Re: Thinking about quitting online poker

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I managed to parlay $100 deposit into $10-15k over a course of a week, typically playing limit hold'em.
LOOOOOLL!Of course, just playing the same limit yeah?
Haha
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