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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,448 34.94%
No 5,524 55.98%
Undecided 895 9.07%
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:51 PM   #1876
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
You should really read up on this if you think they are simply analyzing the binary code.
You really should not be here.

Quote:
I trust you have a stopwatch for all the data gathering/analysis you'll be doing then?
Nope, I dont play online poker anymore so I have no interest in doing-so. I was simply showing that their audits do not regulate the theory of "timing", smart guy. Which is why it would be so easy for online poker sites to get away with "rigging" their software.
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:51 PM   #1877
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
KINGOFFELT:


EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE its wrong. Its not wrong whatsoever you just dont have a response, i think. Their audits do not look/are able to recognize the theory of "timing". Prove me wrong, please
What are you basing this off of? I don't work for them, but I'd imagine that if they have the ability to analyze hundred of millions of hands they would be capable of finding statistical anomalies in the hands they did collect. Yet you claim they cannot. If you want to try to prove your timing theory go ahead, I'm waiting.
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:53 PM   #1878
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Username^^ View Post
You dont understand anything as i see... RNG is a machine that generates 0´s and 1´s and not shuffles or deals cards. Its a Random Number Generator, And not Electronic card shuffler. Those 0´s and 1´s goes procesed throu a specific softwares, that has a specific card as an outcome.
I understand what binary code is. But that is not how you would detect if a RNG is "rigged" or not. That would be done using probability theory over the course of tons and tons of hands. Do you understand now?
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:53 PM   #1879
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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What are you basing this off of? I don't work for them, but I'd imagine that if they have the ability to analyze hundred of millions of hands they would be capable of finding statistical anomalies in the hands they did collect. Yet you claim they cannot. If you want to try to prove your timing theory go ahead, I'm waiting.
They get "not" payed for analyzing hand histories, they are getting payed for release a certificate to their RNG system.

Last edited by Username^^; 04-07-2009 at 07:57 PM. Reason: "not"
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:54 PM   #1880
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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You really should not be here.
Apparently you neither, hence the gimmick account. Ready to disclose why your other accounts were banned?
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:56 PM   #1881
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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What are you basing this off of? I don't work for them, but I'd imagine that if they have the ability to analyze hundred of millions of hands they would be capable of finding statistical anomalies in the hands they did collect. Yet you claim they cannot
Dude, are you like completely oblivious or are you just flat out dumb? I just explained to you how they cannot recognize such statistical anomalies in the theory of "timing", its not that hard too understand. I said it twice!
Yes they can find statistical anomalies in the HH they are auditing, but not in the department you've been arguiing about for the past 40 pages !!
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:56 PM   #1882
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I understand what binary code is. But that is not how you would detect if a RNG is "rigged" or not. That would be done using probability theory over the course of tons and tons of hands. Do you understand now?
As i mentioned before its not very hard to do. Lets open a thread, asking for players to contribute tournament hand histories of any poker room that anyone m8 think its rigged, and give them to 20 or 30 people to analyze them and get to their conclusions. This would solve all doubts of everyone, and would close a debate for ever. As the hand historys would be from different dates, there wouldnt be no influence of auditing date or anything similar.
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:57 PM   #1883
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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They get payed for analyzing hand histories, they are getting payed for release a certificate to their RNG system.
So basically these independent auditors such as Cigital are now rigged as well. Gotcha.
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:58 PM   #1884
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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So basically these independent auditors such as Cigital are now rigged as well. Gotcha
Personally I believe Cigital is a legit auditing company. But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:04 PM   #1885
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
You really should not be here.
kind of ironic, considering your next statement...
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Nope, I dont play online poker anymore so I have no interest in doing-so.
not that there was really any question as to why you were here anyway - it was clearly just to make me feel bad.
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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
Yes they can find statistical anomalies in the HH they are auditing, but not in the department you've been arguiing about for the past 40 pages !!
couple hilarious things in there. see if you can find them, you might be surprised if you look closely!
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:04 PM   #1886
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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So basically these independent auditors such as Cigital are now rigged as well. Gotcha.
I did not say so, They have done their job. They have analyzed RNG systems funcionality witch is good, but it doesnt prove much. As the software can detaine card shuffling untill the needed card comes off. Did you readed about a thing that i posted of recolecting hand histories? Becouse everytime i ask about it, i just cant get any response. You could say like - Ok man lets do it, i opened a thread and i know few guys who could help to analyze, but instead you are posting another post and you are asking for evidence. Evidence wont come up by it self from air.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:05 PM   #1887
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Dude, are you like completely oblivious or are you just flat out dumb? I just explained to you how they cannot recognize such statistical anomalies in the theory of "timing", its not that hard too understand. I said it twice!
Yes they can find statistical anomalies in the HH they are auditing, but not in the department you've been arguiing about for the past 40 pages !!
If too many players are losing/winning at certain points of tournaments, or with certain chip stacks this can be recognized as a statistical anomaly as hand histories are also numbered (which hands). You would need a ton of hand histories though. But I think a hundred million would do. I personally don't have the ability nor the means to do this, but it can be done. I'm not sure why you are so adamant that it cannot. Is it because you personally can't comprehend doing it?

By the way, as I predicted you ignored the question regarding which audits you were referencing with the comment below:

Quote:
Point being - if online poker is "rigged" it will not be easy to uncover. Most audits do not even look for such inconsistencies.

Or were you just hoping no one would question it?
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:14 PM   #1888
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
If too many players are losing/winning at certain points of tournaments, or with certain chip stacks this can be recognized as a statistical anomaly as hand histories are also numbered (which hands). You would need a ton of hand histories though. But I think a hundred million would do. I personally don't have the ability nor the means to do this, but it can be done. I'm not sure why you are so adamant that it cannot. Is it because you personally can't comprehend doing it?

By the way, as I predicted you ignored the question regarding which audits you were referencing with the comment below:




Or were you just hoping no one would question it?
Make sure it was my statement, and i did provided you 1 audit of one popular online poker room. Witch didnt satisfied you at all, me neither. So we are even in this.
You dont need hundreds of millons of hands, you need 10M hands, and compare how certain EV situations holds up in certain blind levels, with certain stacks. The times you get AA vs KK in diferent tournament levels, and i dont know i had something more in my head but i dont feel like i am into this riggin debate now, coz i am watching a movie and its got old again xD. We need some fresh blood (statements) to discuss about.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:14 PM   #1889
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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By the way, as I predicted you ignored the question regarding which audits you were referencing with the comment below:
Actually I did before, and I named 2 prominent ones.

Quote:
These auditers (Cigital, BMM, etc.) do not look for "statistical anomalies" in the places the op has described in his theory of "timing" (shortstack, bubble, etc.) Their audit programs are not able to recognize these situations let alone look for them.
LOL, what are you trying to prove here, man? I've done the research, and I can see you haven't. .

Quote:
You would need a ton of hand histories though. But I think a hundred million would do
Thank you for repeating what I said before. Now you're getting it

Maybe you missed the part before where I explained that their audit programs do not recognize such things (shortstack, on the bubble, etc.) to have noticed such statistical anomalies

Last edited by Rounding4Rent; 04-07-2009 at 08:22 PM. Reason: KingOfFelt doesn't understand
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:14 PM   #1890
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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As i mentioned before its not very hard to do. Lets open a thread, asking for players to contribute tournament hand histories of any poker room that anyone m8 think its rigged, and give them to 20 or 30 people to analyze them and get to their conclusions. This would solve all doubts of everyone, and would close a debate for ever. As the hand historys would be from different dates, there wouldnt be no influence of auditing date or anything similar.
I already gave you the link of the perfect thread to hash this out.
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Ok man lets do it, i opened a thread and i know few guys who could help to analyze, but instead you are posting another post and you are asking for evidence. Evidence wont come up by it self from air.
but you started your own new one anyway?

link please.

also, will Gene Gioia be one of the guys you'll be enlisting for this project? it seems his site still hasn't left the ground, so I'm sure he's got some spare time on his hands if you just ask...
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By the way, as I predicted you ignored the question regarding which audits you were referencing with the comment below:


Or were you just hoping no one would question it?
also wondering if you'll address this while you're fielding questions...
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Apparently you neither, hence the gimmick account. Ready to disclose why your other accounts were banned?
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:19 PM   #1891
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Actually I did before, and I named 2 prominent ones.



LOL, what are you trying to prove here, man? I've done the research, and I can see you haven't. .



Thank you for repeating what I said before. Now you're getting it

Maybe you missed the part before where I explained that their audit programs do not recognize such things to have noticed such statistical anomalies

You've simply made statements. I see no evidence of research. And the part above in bold doesn't even make sense. "Their audit programs do not recognize such things to have noticed such statistical anomalies"?

This is my last response to you as it seems you've gone off the deep end. Although I'd still like to know why you were banned before and had to create a new account.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:21 PM   #1892
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

GG
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:27 PM   #1893
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Give me a brake .. Your starting piss me. I never said it was rigged, but i never said the opposite way. Now if we are talking about giving proves .. Prove me that timing theory is wrong xD. Just let me watch a movie, i m8 be back tomorow. Or later ... If something interesting will go around here coz we are just spining around like an idiots and dont get to any realible solution, or conlusion about all this thing. We dont have "real audit" opinions about their card shuffling (with stats etc.) And this proves enough in my opinion.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:30 PM   #1894
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Ive come to my conclusions after years of playing online and seeing unlikely events too often.

I know nothing at all about software programming and little about RNGs so Im never going to be able to explain co herently what goes on.
A simple test you can do though it will be a bit boring is take a coin and flip it 1,000 or 10,000 times and record the results. Or, feel free to do it without recording the results as you can still test part of this behavior at work.

Through the series of flips there will be odd sequences, like multiple heads or tails in a row, or a pattern of HHTHHTHHT and it will not be hard to form beliefs of how the coin is rigged based on these patterns.

Keep in mind it is you flipping a coin, yet you will eventuially begin to think it is rigged in a certain way. Three heads came up in a row the next one will be tails since it always is. That type of thing.


All you are doing is the same thing. You see something that sticks out, a bad beat or a wild hand, and it sticks in your memory. As more and more odd things happen (as they will once in a while) you form a pattern of belief as to what they mean. Look, ace rag beat KK 3 times in a row that means something.

Well, no not really, it is just you basing a belief on selected memories of a few specific instances. This is why a hand history database helps, it tells you exactly what happened. Your memory tells you "wow I sure remember A rag beating KK a lot" because the opther times tend to not stand out.

Note also how we hear all about A rag beating KK, but you do not hear as much about A rag (2-8) beating 99, partially because that scenario comes up fewer times, but also because it is just not as sexy a situation even though the odds are the same. KK losing seems worse, so you remember it a lot more then when a hand like 77 or 99 loses.


Also keep in mind that most of the rigged theories you believe in are either

- Far too complicated to be worthwhile doing (vs easier to do smarter ways of rigging if it was actually rigged)

- Far too easy to be caught


Your theories are like if McDonalds tried to trick it's customers by selling burgers missing a bun to save costs. Not the best way to cheat customers.




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Also these online gambling sites are often based in the same places that drug dealing and other illegal enterprises operate out of like Costa Rica/Cyprus/Isle of Mann etc. Id be a lot less suspicious if they were properly regulated and based on the mainland in reputable locations. Although the US is obv currently off limits.
This is called being xenophobic. It is a common flaw and it produces opinions pretty much exactly like yours.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:34 PM   #1895
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Give me a brake .. Your starting piss me. I never said it was rigged, but i never said the opposite way. Now if we are talking about giving proves .. Prove me that timing theory is wrong xD. Just let me watch a movie, i m8 be back tomorow. Or later ... If something interesting will go around here coz we are just spining around like an idiots and dont get to any realible solution, or conlusion about all this thing. We dont have "real audit" opinions about their card shuffling (with stats etc.) And this proves enough in my opinion.
For what it is worth, if I was to create a fake account here to pretend to be a rigtard this is pretty much the approach I would use. Write in a pre grade 2 manner, bring up historically hot button issues like timing patterns, and ask for lots of "prove xxxx does not exist."

Not saying if this guy is a fake or not, frankly I do not really care, but it is probably the best troll approach for some of the extra excited people who post on these threads.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:44 PM   #1896
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

What makes you think that i created a fake account ? Its a new acount, i was coming to this forum before only to listen to a weekly podcast. Give me a brake man. And i never said it was rigged, its just the way i am. I love to discuss and chat with people. I would get probably into any discusion i can, and defend weaker side of it :P
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:48 PM   #1897
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
KINGOFFELT:


EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE its wrong. Its not wrong whatsoever you just dont have a response, i think. Their audits do not look/are able to recognize the theory of "timing". Prove me wrong, please
No one has to prove you wrong if you can't prove yourself right.

Dont know if I like The great Poker is rigged thread. The good thing about rigged threads is that they come and go this one never gos.

Last edited by batair; 04-07-2009 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:53 PM   #1898
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Have fun, i am going to sleep xD i had a really good time.
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Old 04-07-2009, 09:07 PM   #1899
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Dont know if I like The great Poker is rigged thread. The good thing about rigged threads is that they come and go this one never gos.
I suspect there will be a pattern to this thread's popularity. You just need to keep your eye on the timing.
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Old 04-07-2009, 09:16 PM   #1900
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

it's all about the timing that's how they get ya
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