The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition - Page 602 - Internet Poker

You are a lying liar who tells lies.

These things are periodically explained in this thread.

When they are, normal, intelligent, sceptics have a little think about it and realise that their concerns are probably unfounded.

Idiot rigtards, on the other hand either completely ignore the explanation and repeat the same allegation a few days later or start to libel those who have gone to the trouble to try and help them by calling them shills.

That is why some of us are insulting to the more absurd of the 'tards.

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02-26-2010 , 03:00 PM

#15027

spadebidder

Actually Shows Proof

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjhmdm

Except that I thought all of this could actually be explained through math, variance, stats, etc... except I've not seen it explained, and every time someone questions it the only "answer" they receive is "it's explainable" followed by a "you're a rigtard"...

And perhaps maybe if people took the time to actually explain things, instead of simply slapping everyone who asks with a "shut up you stupid rigtard"... perhaps we might actually get somewhere with this entire debate.

I gave you a straightforward answer without any insults. If you like, send me the following and I'll show you some math on it and give you probabilites:

1. The specific hand histories that concern you in that 2-hour session. Complete. You can delete screennames but nothing else. You can just PM them to me, pasting in however much text you can on here and do it again if you have to.

2. The exact number of hands you played in that session, and some rough numbers for your typical play like how often you play this many hands, and how many you have accumulated online lifetime. And VPIP if you know it.

I'll post the result in this forum.

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02-26-2010 , 03:03 PM

#15028

cjhmdm

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 229

Quote:

Originally Posted by qpw

Then please explain how you can analyze incomplete data? And I by incomplete data, I mean truly incomplete, not "you didn't submit enough hand histories"... incomplete as in "I can only show you hands that were played, not all hands".

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02-26-2010 , 03:10 PM

#15029

cjhmdm

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 229

Quote:

Originally Posted by spadebidder

How can I save instant hand histories? I forgot to enable saving them to disk on the other comp so need to pull them from my instant history? And in what format would you like them? I can send them raw (hand by hand), or summary only.

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02-26-2010 , 03:16 PM

#15030

DonkoTheClown

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjhmdm

If one were to rig an RNG, by manually or automaticly to make: "the bad players, Americans, French, players who just cashed out, ect." lose, by foreseeing that no amount of HH's can statisticly prove an RNG is rigged or not unless you account for all hole cards preflop.

Example of an HH report that I'm refering to would be one like the UB/AP report sent mistakenly showing all individual hole cards.
------------------------------------------
Precisely why I stated the only way to prove one way or another would be for the poker rooms to open up and make hand histories public. And, we already know this will never happen, which also means we'll never be able to provide the proof the defenders of this argument are 'requiring'. So, all of us 'rigtards' are simply wasting our time questioning anything, and the 'pros' know this, and know that we are wasting our time; which is why they do nothing but 'defend' with 'math' they cannot explain, and call us rigtards.

And it wouldn't matter how many hands histories I could personally show... Even if I gave 100 trillion hands, the data would be incomplete and therefore broken down and explained away, with the hopes of convincing me that everything is on the up and up even though we both know I just gave you 100 trillion lines of incomplete data.

It would be like saying "hey, here's a 2 million page book. I only want you to read every 10th page, then write a 200 page thesis explaining everything that happened in the book".

I think the sites should just provide all info on the hand histories. They can put it in the terms of agreement. Then anyone can check the numbers out anytime they want to. If players decide to exploit info and go bum hunting, oh well, that is the cost of doing business. We are still all on equal ground. Who says that using the info like that is any different than asking your friend at the local B and M who the bum is there? This is why I will never buy that argument for not releasing the full hand history info. Just do it and provide the transparency.

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02-26-2010 , 03:20 PM

#15031

batair

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

-1

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02-26-2010 , 03:24 PM

#15032

DonkoTheClown

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

-1

LOL!
Ok, you work for one of sites.

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02-26-2010 , 03:40 PM

#15033

tk1133

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,221

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

Correct, I don't see why any poker player seeking a secure poker environment would object to that statement....

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02-26-2010 , 03:41 PM

#15034

batair

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

LOL!
Ok, you work for one of sites.

um no but im open to shilling if they are hiring. It just a vary bad idea.

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02-26-2010 , 03:44 PM

#15035

tk1133

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,221

Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

........... It just a vary bad idea.

Why?

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02-26-2010 , 03:46 PM

#15036

DonkoTheClown

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

um no but im open to shilling if they are hiring. It just a vary bad idea.

Why would it be a very bad idea?

These could be released with a time delay so that there is no way to exploit these in real time.

Also, if they dont want to do it for cash ring games because of the bum hunting thing that is going on, they could just do it for mtt's.

If it is truly random, then there is no way anyone can use the info to clock the RNG and there is nothing the site should have to worry about. The players are still on equal footing and the most intelligent and talented will still rise to the top.

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02-26-2010 , 03:49 PM

#15037

batair

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk1133

Why?

Because you should have no right to see my hole cards. I dont even like that the sites allow mucked losing hands to be seen at showdown.

Not to mention if you think the games are hard now....

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02-26-2010 , 03:51 PM

#15038

DonkoTheClown

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

Because you should have no right to see my hole cards. I dont even like that the sites alow mucked losing hands at showdown.

That is a valid point, but are you saying that you are so rigid in your approach to poker that someone could find a pattern in your style and exploit you? Then you need as much work on your game as I do.

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02-26-2010 , 03:53 PM

#15039

spadebidder

Actually Shows Proof

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjhmdm

The original text file provided by the site is fine. Individual hands.

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02-26-2010 , 03:53 PM

#15040

DonkoTheClown

adept

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 741

Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

Because you should have no right to see my hole cards. I dont even like that the sites allow mucked losing hands to be seen at showdown.

Not to mention if you think the games are hard now....

It is just more information to make up for the lack of information that is available because you are not sitting face to face with someone looking for physical tells.

Everyone would still be on equal footing, you would just have to adapt your game a little to take advantage.

Progression, we all need it, even the best players.

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02-26-2010 , 03:55 PM

#15041

batair

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

It has nothing to do with my donk game.

Last edited by batair; 02-26-2010 at 04:07 PM.

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02-26-2010 , 03:56 PM

#15042

tk1133

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,221

Quote:

Originally Posted by batair

Because you should have no right to see my hole cards. I dont even like that the sites allow mucked losing hands to be seen at showdown.

Not to mention if you think the games are hard now....

So why is it ok for the WSOP/WPT to show hole cards at feature tables?
-Please don't give me the,
"This has been debated and many have voiced how they don't like it...yada..." If what you're saying holds merit then what are you saying about the WSOP and others?

This is a sport, you act like its violating your privacy or bank account information.

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02-26-2010 , 03:56 PM

#15043

spadebidder

Actually Shows Proof

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

Every player has exploitable patterns if you have enough complete hand histories on them to study. They have found betting lines that work for them and they will use them over and over. For some period of time you could take advantage of that until they adjust. Sites are never going to do this, and the vast majority of players would object to it as well.

Quote

02-26-2010 , 03:57 PM

#15044

cjhmdm

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 229

Quote:

Originally Posted by spadebidder

The original text file provided by the site is fine. Individual hands.

The text file wasn't saved so I'll just copy/paste them to a txt file... unless there's a way I can save them from within the client (I didn't have saving hand histories enabled at the time).

Quote

02-26-2010 , 03:58 PM

#15045

batair

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown

Progression, we all need it, even the best players.

If progression means making the game even harder to beat making even more rigged folks, ok.

Quote

02-26-2010 , 03:58 PM

#15046

Arouet

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Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,433

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjhmdm

The text file wasn't saved so I'll just copy/paste them to a txt file... unless there's a way I can save them from within the client (I didn't have saving hand histories enabled at the time).

You can request them from the site.

Quote

02-26-2010 , 03:58 PM

#15047

tk1133

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,221

Quote:

Originally Posted by spadebidder

So why are HUD's not considered the same thing? HEM all the other "legal" hand trackers.

Quote

02-26-2010 , 03:58 PM

#15048

spadebidder

Actually Shows Proof

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjhmdm

The text file wasn't saved so I'll just copy/paste them to a txt file... unless there's a way I can save them from within the client (I didn't have saving hand histories enabled at the time).

You appear to not have PMs enabled. We should take this conversation off the thread.

Quote

02-26-2010 , 04:00 PM

#15049

Arouet

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Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,433

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk1133

So why are HUD's not considered the same thing? HEM all the other "legal" hand trackers.

You know the answer to this, TK, they are for hands that you play in. Datamining is not allowed.

Quote

02-26-2010 , 04:01 PM

#15050

spadebidder

Actually Shows Proof

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7,905

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk1133

So why are HUD's not considered the same thing? HEM all the other "legal" hand trackers.

You don't have your opponent's hole cards unless he shows them down. HUDs and hand tracking are just memory aids, they don't give you additional information. You are asking for sites to provide you all hole cards. That's never going to happen.

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