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Originally Posted by TwoMoos
From the Beginners Forum, we learn "there have been major problems and scandals in the past." Also, "evidence suggests upper management and/or ownership may have been involved."
In a sense, the debate is over. Sometimes, online poker is rigged. The threat is not presented by rigtards but by the online sites and their policies.
Ok, fair point: in the past, cheating by the site has been found. I think we can add in the Pitbull case here where while cheating was never proven explicitly, the fact that the site was willing to shut down rather than provide access to massive amounts of handhistories strongly suggests that they knew that the HHs would show something.
Ok, so what is the lesson from these two cases?
1) there are cheaters out there
2) sometimes those cheaters are from the inside
3) we should be vigilant.
I don't think you're going to find any opposition to those points. The arguments that go on in this thread is "how do we go about doing #3."
Because the other main lesson from those two scandals is how they got caught. In each case undoubtedly suspicion began to form as a nagging feeling. This is where most rigtards stop. What these guys did next was what got results: they painstakingly went over their handhistories, and shared information, building a case. They didn't just whine about it, they put together convincing evidence.
The shills, as you call them (some of whom were directly involved in uncovering those two scandals) have provided tons of useful information to help out people who suspect there is. Almost universally, their thanks is to be called shills and their advice ignored, which results into them resorting to insults and clever one liners. But there is so much good stuff there, and I'm sure I've advised you to look at this in the past.
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For example, why are players permitted to use programs like PokerTracker and Hold'em Manager? I suspect many unwary players (and rigtards) feel these programs create a rigged environment though the deal may be completely fair.
This is a separate question but the market has taken care of this. There are sites, such as Cake (unless they've changed) which don't allow these programs.
Anyhow, hopefully you will see my point. You can decide whether you really want to see if something is going wrong or whether you are comfortable with your suspicions alone and feel good just shouting about how unfair every bad beat is.