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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 891 9.04%
Voters: 9857. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-02-2010, 03:05 AM   #12776
thenukes
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
You're assuming that everyone who voted yes actually believe that. Does it occur to anyone that there would be a lot of people that would find it amusing to vote "yes" in what they consider to be a ridiculous poll?
Sure, and I assume that could work in both directions? Or is it only the direction you need it to?

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
My point is, this poll is extremely unscientific. But even if the number really is 37%, so what? 34% of Tennesseans believe Obama was born in another country. Over 1/3 of Americans polled in 2006 believe the US government was involved in or allowed the 9/11 events to happen. 31% of a 2001 Harris poll believe in astrology.

Those are just a quick sampling I found around the Internet. So what does 37% believing something matter?

Oh...and 25% of the poulation has an IQ <90.
That's all fine. I won't argue that popular opinion isn't necessarily the way to gauge the truth.

Hence, I'd assume you'd agree that the popular opinion here isn't relevant to the real truth of this matter either.
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:12 AM   #12777
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Sure, and I assume that could work in both directions? Or is it only the direction you need it to?
Of course it could. But I don't envision a lot of people who think poker is rigged that would find it funny to vote that it isn't. Do you? Doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

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Hence, I'd assume you'd agree that the popular opinion here isn't relevant to the real truth of this matter either.
Of course it isn't.
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:49 AM   #12778
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I have no idea if online poker is rigged. What I see on an ongoing basis, makes me skeptical!! Hopefully that is clearer for you..
You can say this, but, then what exactly are you claiming by the below?

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imo, varience doesn't begin to explain some of the beats.
So variance doesn't explain your beats, so what exactly could explain your beats then?
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:01 AM   #12779
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I'm on the fence in the "rigged" discussion, but I can say with absolute certainty that during losing AND winning streaks... I've seen patterns and long stretches of odds-f#cking results that simply defy anything that could be attributed to variance. So, I've seen it help me... and hurt me.

Of course, that's my opinion. I could be wrong..
This doesn't have to be mere opinion. It is calculable how off the mean your results are. Now I don't know how to do that by myself either but when you suggest a certain pattern could not be normal varience it suggests that you know what results would be if it was within normal variance, within certain standard deviations.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:40 AM   #12780
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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That's flawed reasoning.

If someone identifies that when they flop 2 pair, someone else will call with nothing and end up with trips... it's not like there is a way to "exploit" and profit from that.
Simple. If you flop 2 pair then check fold since it is always a loser. Part of winning long term is avoiding "sure lose" situations, so if that is one you have pattern mapped then exploit that wisdom and make your subjective +EV play.

Any single pattern you think you see can be exploited if it is true.



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Originally Posted by thenukes View Post
Just because someone sees something doesn't mean they can flip it in their favor. They can certainly learn to lay down marginal hands when they identify set-up situations, but it's not as if they can turn a profit by these events.
If you see a pattern of riggedness then it can be exploited. If your pattern is "sometimes bad things happen," well ok then there is not much that can be done as that is like saying sometimes a coin flip yields heads and sometimes tails. That's called being random.

Any systemic pattern you can identify can be exploited if it were true.



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Originally Posted by thenukes View Post
I'm on the fence in the "rigged" discussion, but I can say with absolute certainty that during losing AND winning streaks... I've seen patterns and long stretches of odds-f#cking results that simply defy anything that could be attributed to variance. So, I've seen it help me... and hurt me.
Don't kid yourself - you are a full riggie using selective memory. The choice is what do you do about it. If you believe in these patterns then exploit them. Otherwise, what is the point? You do want to make money right?

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Of course, that's my opinion. I could be wrong. But, being so quick to dismiss someone's concerns isn't really the hallmark of true research. I'm not saying it IS or isn't rigged, but I have suspicions.... and I consider that to be healthy.
My point is why not capitalize on them if you believe in them? I dismiss your inability to take any action - whether to start using common sense and logic or to actually exploit the patterns you think you see. I would respect either action (though the latter would be much more expensive for you) over your fence sitting. Purchase some testicles and make a choice on your beliefs.

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There was a time not long ago that people weren't suspicious of banks, or large brokerages.
A long time ago the wheel was innovative. So what.

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Remember the Madoff video where he was speaking to the broker's seminar?Remember the dismissal and utter condescension with which he spoke to those who questioned the ability of Wall St. firms to engage in illegal activity?
Plenty of videos exist of people who are condescending whether they are evil fat cats or just people who hate their fat cat. Again, so what?

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Originally Posted by thenukes View Post
I'm just saying that for all of those who debate this issue, dismissing one side as crazy or just bad poker players is a little shallow.
I dismiss the wishy-washy approach you riggies take. If you believe the system is flawed then exploit it for gain. Again, to date none of you have which is fairly compelling evidence that your beliefs are not as accurate as you would hope them to be.

Why not be the first riggie to prove me wrong in that regard. I encourage that as there is no downside to me.

All the best.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:44 AM   #12781
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Noone proofed so far its rigged.

1. its random
2. they rigged in a clever way

How many really have that large databases and do the work to analyse them ?
What are you looking for ? Balancing the games, create action ( RAKE ), or a few houseplayers ?

The whole world is corrupt/ rigged business , politic but poker is clean ...heheh.

Its pretty simple play poker and enjoy or look for another job / hobby.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:54 AM   #12782
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by solucky View Post
Noone proofed so far its rigged.

1. its random
2. they rigged in a clever way
The point there is that if they rigged it in such a clever way that you can't detect it then it can't be having much effect on your bottom line so you may as well just keep playing and concentrate on the things that will really improve your win rate.

Quote:
The whole world is corrupt/ rigged business , politic but poker is clean ...heheh.
The whole world is not corrupt.

Yes, there is plenty of corruption but it is by no means universal.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:57 AM   #12783
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I can't believe this thread has 853 pages
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:09 AM   #12784
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I can't believe this thread has 853 pages
I can't believe it's not butter.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:11 AM   #12785
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

From what I see you have the riggies in the blue corner, making up their own facts, analogies and stating their personal opinion as fact. They believe that online poker is there to bleed them dry of their bank balance and seem very paranoid about life in general, comparing online poker to things like ponzi schemes.

Then in the red corner you have the people who aren't paranoid and are not of the belief that the whole world is out to get them. They belive online poker is legitimite, so they make snide and condescending remarks to the riggies..

This is going round and round and round and round and round and round, yet I feel compelled and almost a sick need to shut down every riggie who comments on here

The internet really brings out the best in people..

I love it

Last edited by arcticbeatle; 02-02-2010 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:17 AM   #12786
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I can't believe it's not butter.
You know what me neither
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:23 AM   #12787
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I can't believe this thread has 853 pages
Click on My 2+2
Click on Edit Options
Scroll down to "Number of Posts to Show Per Page"
Change to 100 Posts Per Page

You'll be saving about four trees.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:30 AM   #12788
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Mike Haven View Post
Click on My 2+2
Click on Edit Options
Scroll down to "Number of Posts to Show Per Page"
Change to 100 Posts Per Page

You'll be saving about four trees.
Thank you Mike, that has made my life a lot eaiser. Plus I feel good knowing I'm saving trees
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:54 AM   #12789
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Mike Haven View Post
Click on My 2+2
Click on Edit Options
Scroll down to "Number of Posts to Show Per Page"
Change to 100 Posts Per Page

You'll be saving about four trees.
And about 12,347,892,189,377 electrons.

Very approximately.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:01 AM   #12790
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Then in the red corner you have the people who aren't paranoid and are not of the belief that the whole world is out to get them. They belive online poker is legitimite, so they make snide and condescending remarks to the riggies..
Although some feel this is irrelevant, I would, again, point out that only a small proportion of those who believe in rigging get the condescending remarks.

There are only so many times that you are prepared to carefully answer someone's concerns only to have them come back accusing you of being a shill for a poker site, being afraid of people having concerns, or in the case of the most seriously ******ed, asserting that you don't play poker.

(Although, none of the ******s who have said the latter have ever come up with an intelligent explanation of:

a) Why an assertion based on logic or probability maths requires that the person doing the explaining needs to play poker.

b) On exactly what evidence the base their entirely fanciful assertions.)


People who pop up with concerns and respond intelligently to explanations are treated quite differently.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:20 AM   #12791
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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There are only so many times that you are prepared to carefully answer someone's concerns only to have them come back accusing you of being a shill for a poker site, being afraid of people having concerns, or in the case of the most seriously ******ed, asserting that you don't play poker.

This should be a lesson that riggies should consider - like all systems whether they be a company or a person, if you analyze how the system works you can determine the best way to exploit the system and get the outcome you seek.

How many riggies have tried to really get under qpw's skin? I know I lost track, and the dozens of mean personal attacks that have been hurled at him with zero effect because the reality is he is way better at that than any riggie.

Within his systemic way of message board trashtalking there was a simple flaw. He has never shown that he plays, so I simply brought up that topic and look at how that simple approach generated some of the meanest comments ever from him. Look at the above comment, which has really pissed him off the most - being called a shill, ****** or a non player. Reality is only one of those 3 is accurate anyway.


Every system, whether company or person, has flaws that can be exploited, myself included. The more sane way Stars was exploited could be seen at the "hot spots" of FPP risk/reward tables like 1/2 limit last year until it got changed. The less sane are people who think 2 pairs always lose to junk post flop.

However, both can still be exploited if they are true, in this case only 1 of 2 is.

Study a system, identify it's flaws, and capitalize. Riggies think they do the first 2 parts. When will they try the third?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...d-days-676038/

has a lot of posts of people who did all 3 steps above and made quite a bit as a result.


All the best.



P.S. qpw - not trying to start another fight, I know you will need to get in some kind of emotional response for being used as an example and that is understandable and valid. Whatever it is it will go uncontested and then we can move on. Have fun with it, I like it when you get creative (ie: try to avoid using variations of the word ****** this one time). Good luck.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:41 AM   #12792
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Otatop,

"How is this an "action hand"? I didn't realize somebody sucking out qualified as one now." - An action hand is when you have betting occuring during a hand and this KK hand was exactly that.

The fact that you know this yet attempt to troll my post is a little annoying.

I probably should not even be addressing you directly as this is probably what you were looking for by trying to mock my opinions.

I would never spend the time posting stuff like this in a poker forum if it happened once or twice but it feels like I have been playing poker on steroids for the past 30k hands.

It is not simply an issue of winning or losing, it is how the game feels as compared to my live game experiences.

That is all I really wanted to share.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:48 AM   #12793
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Study a system, identify it's flaws, and capitalize. Riggies think they do the first 2 parts. When will they try the third?
1. Study a system
2. Identify its flaws
3. ...
4. Profit

FYP
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:55 AM   #12794
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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An action hand is when you have betting occuring during a hand and this KK hand was exactly that.
Your definition of an action hand makes little sense to me. Of course in the vast majority of hands, assuming an unrigged game, there WILL be betting.

When most people talk about action hands they mean hands like AA vs KK or set vs set and stuff, where no one can possibly get away from their hand. A hand where someone made a poor decision and accidentally hit their outs does not strike me as an "action hand".

If you would have said something about "fish making poor calls and hitting their outs as to be rewarded/not lose their money too fast" and used that hand as an example that would make more sense (although it wouldn't necessarily be a sign that something is wrong with the deal).

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I would never spend the time posting stuff like this in a poker forum if it happened once or twice but it feels like I have been playing poker on steroids for the past 30k hands.
But online poker IS poker on steroids.

DUCY?
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:57 AM   #12795
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Otatop,

"How is this an "action hand"? I didn't realize somebody sucking out qualified as one now." - An action hand is when you have betting occuring during a hand and this KK hand was exactly that.

The fact that you know this yet attempt to troll my post is a little annoying.

I probably should not even be addressing you directly as this is probably what you were looking for by trying to mock my opinions.

I would never spend the time posting stuff like this in a poker forum if it happened once or twice but it feels like I have been playing poker on steroids for the past 30k hands.

It is not simply an issue of winning or losing, it is how the game feels as compared to my live game experiences.

That is all I really wanted to share.
Really, the nature of online poker compared to live explains the entire difference in 'feel'. It's probably a combination of:

1. Selective memory. We get in 10x+ the hands/hour.
2. Live skills don't convert well to online poker.
2.1 Picking up live tells can potentially save you a bunch on coolers in live poker, but online you don't really have these tells. Therefore, coolers, or 'action hands' are going to happen online more often if you're a good live player.
3. Skill gap of the player field online and live. Live players at the lowest limits suck and play much worse than online players at 1/10th of that buy-in.


It makes perfect sense that online poker has a 'Rigged' feel to it compared to live poker. This however does not automatically mean it IS 'Rigged'.

Hope that makes sense.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:59 AM   #12796
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

"But online poker IS poker on steroids." - point taken....
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:02 AM   #12797
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Your definition of an action hand makes little sense to me. Of course in the vast majority of hands, assuming an unrigged game, there WILL be betting.

When most people talk about action hands they mean hands like AA vs KK or set vs set and stuff, where no one can possibly get away from their hand. A hand where someone made a poor decision and accidentally hit their outs does not strike me as an "action hand".
Yeah, this was my point. Thanks. Someone getting all in with 6 high vs KK is like...the exact opposite of an action hand as typically defined by other rigficianados.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:36 AM   #12798
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

An action hand generally means that players either hit the flop more often than would be expected with a random deal, or get valuable hole cards more often than they should, in order to stimulate betting.

There are only two ways this can happen (not mutually exclusive):

1. The flop is manipulated to work with the randomly dealt hole cards. For several major sites, I've shown that if this occurs at all it is so infrequent as to be pointless.

2. The hole cards are manipulated. This one is easily checked by any player who uses PT or HEM, simply by the distribution of the hole cards. Many have checked and found it to be normal. Zero people have ever published a statistically abnormal record.

So which action hand method do you think is happening? (not asking anyone in particular)
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:21 PM   #12799
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithcommajohn View Post
1. Study a system
2. Identify its flaws
3. ...
4. Profit

FYP
For example, look at slots:
1. Study the system -- done
2. Identify its flaws -- it's set against you
3. You can't change how it's set.
4. Losses

A common misperception here is that if you can identify the flaws, you can profit. That's not always true.
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:22 PM   #12800
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

*epicfailboat.jpg*

Slots is not played between players. In poker when one player wins the other ones lose.
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