Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-30-2010, 08:01 AM   #12701
solucky
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,480
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
What the hell? You want a poker site to conduct and publish an audit on itself? That makes no sense. The whole point of an audit is that it is conducted by someone else. That's pretty core to the concept of an audit.
Its true that a external company make the audit !!

I did audits in europe and was audited a few times. Most people have a wrong idea about an audit. The time from the audits is known weeks in advance, its exactly planned what is audited, weeks in advance you get an audit plan.

So if someone want rigg its easy simple that any looks fine during an audit !!

We work 90% like described, but have a few small leaks and sure never an auditor see them .

And how many hands do you want audit to make sure its random...variance is extreme in poker.

Myself made nice money in the old days, but not in these days. I am a beak even player that spend a few hours in a cheap hobby, but i am far away to believe poker is a fair game and i have doubts that poker is random.

A good rigg is simple to profitable and verry hard to detect. And i dont mean a rigg that shows my AA lost too many times or i miss my draw to many times.

I am sure that AA wins exactly the right amount and that you hit and miss your draws like expected...if they rigg its more complex.
solucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 08:36 AM   #12702
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
I actually do want online poker as it is now banned. When a US company hosts the servers on US land and lets a real agency regulate it I would support it.
So you want online poker, but only when "real" Americans monitor it. Or something. Heh. Yeah, hard to see how your brain is wired...



Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
What data? You seriously think that saying I don't support Indians hosting online poker servers constitutes me hating them? What is your name Rachel Maddow? Come on dude your not going to seriously tell me you are going to accuse me of racism and resort to the MSNBC scare mongering and then when called out tell people to search the thread? Strike three yerrrrrrr out! Lame dude, real lame.
Sorry, I guess I am not a "real" American so I not qualified to make dismissive, hate based comments like you do (even when you have no idea that is what you are doing).

Ironically, I am American (as well as Canadian), so I guess I am only half real...


Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
The mohawk reservation is being utilized because of it's immunity to any laws. The KGC knew nothinig before and really knows nothing of gaming. I don't support this. I don't hate Native Americans, now go to McDonalds and get a cheeseburger and while your eating it ponder your next spin.
Ah, so they are the patsies of the evil foreigners avoiding real American laws. What an evil plot indeed. At least you have McDonalds, a "real" American place where you can get some freedom fries.



Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
Give yourself a goldstar on your parents refrigerator buddy. Your still an avg 12 buy in. Good luck, remember AA and KK don't come around that often.
Actually the average buy in since I started is $14, and $16 in the past 120 days which includes a ton of tiny hi/lo tournament buy ins as I learn that MTT format. Average NL MTT tourney buy is around $20 in that time and going up.

Of course I am not sure what the point of any of that is, other than you seem to continually lie about data that is extremely easy to verify in a weird attempt as a put down.

I mean it's not like you are showing you are a winning player (which would be shocking) or that you are playing a high level yourself, so you come across as a midget calling an average person short, which might make for a good pro wrestling skit I suppose.



Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
I have my own data thank you
None of which you will ever share or disclose, which puts it in the realm of make believe.

You are just an angry little riggie. Know your role.

All the best.
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 12:25 PM   #12703
Bingo_Boy
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,872
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
...thanks to FT for busting me out of the 80k by a two outer, totally outplayed a guy but the river was rigged of course to screw me. It makes me proud to be a poker player. Hat is off to you Howard and the rest of the FT family. You are so good at what you do. Keep up the good work.
Here is some advice I read from someone in response to a live hand where a player was sucked out on. Why don't you follow this advice regarding your online bad beats rather than making moronic accusations of cheating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
It's a cooler what can you do. ... he isn't getting off that hand because he sounded like a donk. You were destined to lose that hand. Really no way you can lay it down. You got one outered it does happen. You should have at least berated him while you left so you felt better
That isn't a rhetorical question by the way. What tangible evidence do you have from your own hand histories that prevents you from taking your own advice? I'm not asking you to prove online is rigged and you can even cherry pick your own data. Just demonstrate the reason for your beliefs without mentioning timing, feel, memory, opportunity or any other superstitious rubbish.
Bingo_Boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 01:00 PM   #12704
banonlinepoker
banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,338
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Sorry, I guess I am not a "real" American so I not qualified to make dismissive, hate based comments like you do (even when you have no idea that is what you are doing).
Again you have provided no source or post of mine that is hateful. I am telling you you should forward you resume to MSNBC. They would love to have another person who just blurts out hate mongering without any source or real data to back it up.
banonlinepoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 01:05 PM   #12705
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
Again you have provided no source or post of mine that is hateful. I am telling you you should forward you resume to MSNBC. They would love to have another person who just blurts out hate mongering without any source or real data to back it up.
Posted the thread. Said I posted the thread. Even commented on your stuff up there.

Funny you keep switching back and forth between playing a "victim" and then reversing into the aggressive making up/lying about public data guy when you debate. You act like you are 4 years old . Purchase an attention span - they may be on sale at Walmart, and if you buy it there you know it was made by real "Americans."

Anyway, off to play. Feel free to watch (like you have been a lot lately...) and hey - better luck in those pretend games you claim to play. I hope your made up secret data evens out for you.

All the best.
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 06:24 PM   #12706
tk1133
veteran
 
tk1133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Making friends one post @ a time
Posts: 2,221
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

So nobody's going to answer JPFISH's question? Been waiting all day...
tk1133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 06:25 PM   #12707
Devilboy666
veteran
 
Devilboy666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2,569
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Banonlinepoker: Please post your data or GTFO
Devilboy666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 06:27 PM   #12708
tk1133
veteran
 
tk1133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Making friends one post @ a time
Posts: 2,221
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
Josem;

Can you explain how the auditor checks to be sure that the site is always using the RNG that it is asked to audit. Does the auditor also audit hand histories? How can the auditor detect if the site periodically substitutes a RNG, skewing for the underdog after the flop or all in, in place of the random RNG that the auditor is presented by the site?
I think that deserves an answer.
tk1133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 06:29 PM   #12709
tk1133
veteran
 
tk1133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Making friends one post @ a time
Posts: 2,221
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilboy666 View Post
Banonlinepoker: Please post your data or GTFO
I think changing his screen name would do more justice...
tk1133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 06:44 PM   #12710
Josem
human chemical weapon
 
Josem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Getting Trolled
Posts: 17,957
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
Josem;

Can you explain how the auditor checks to be sure that the site is always using the RNG that it is asked to audit.
'Cause you check the output. The output is what actually happened.
Quote:
How can the auditor detect if the site periodically substitutes a RNG, skewing for the underdog after the flop or all in, in place of the random RNG that the auditor is presented by the site?
That's an inherent problem in *all* audits. That's why the best test of the legitimacy of any shuffle is the players who are able to conduct their own audits, 24/7. I'm not the one who is saying an audit is the solution to everything here: that's the rigtards who are claiming that.

Further, in a properly regulated environment, there should be scope for regulators to turn up without notice and look at stuff on demand.
Josem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 07:27 PM   #12711
smithcommajohn
grinder
 
smithcommajohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: acceptance
Posts: 533
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Proof it's legit -> Click here!
smithcommajohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 08:00 PM   #12712
dugpe
newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 40
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

you got it right -party chooses its winners -just try to beat any deep stack at tournaments. you will lose-the program, somehow , feeds the big stack regardless whot he /she plays they want you in live.
dugpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 08:18 PM   #12713
NFuego20
Pooh-Bah
 
NFuego20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 4,295
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugpe View Post
you got it right -party chooses its winners -just try to beat any deep stack at tournaments. you will lose-the program, somehow , feeds the big stack regardless whot he /she plays they want you in live.
It took you more than 2 years to come up with this gem?

And this was his first post, even better.

Quote:
I have been playing free roll tournamets on Party for quite a while. Ihave no money in my account there. Ifirmly believe anybody with no money in thier account has no chance whatsoever,no matter how good you are ,to win. You will always be eventually dealt a great hand only to los e to a funky suckout or out flopped by large stack. Does anybody agree that a doom switch exists?
NFuego20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 08:18 PM   #12714
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugpe View Post
you got it right -party chooses its winners -just try to beat any deep stack at tournaments. you will lose-the program, somehow , feeds the big stack regardless whot he /she plays they want you in live.
Shove the first hand, win the blinds, then you will have 30 more chips than anyone else and you can never lose based on how their system works according to you. After all, you will be the table big stack...

Send me a cut of your first million made using this flawless approach.

All the best
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 08:28 PM   #12715
tk1133
veteran
 
tk1133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Making friends one post @ a time
Posts: 2,221
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
It took you more than 2 years to come up with this gem?

And this was his first post, even better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qirSep_OdlQ
tk1133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 10:30 PM   #12716
JPFisher55
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 3,425
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
'Cause you check the output. The output is what actually happened.

That's an inherent problem in *all* audits. That's why the best test of the legitimacy of any shuffle is the players who are able to conduct their own audits, 24/7. I'm not the one who is saying an audit is the solution to everything here: that's the rigtards who are claiming that.

Further, in a properly regulated environment, there should be scope for regulators to turn up without notice and look at stuff on demand.
That's what I thought. The auditors audit the hand histories like the audit in "spadebidder." I look forward to reading his examination of the turn and river cards.

Also, when Holdem Manager and Poker Tracker 3 introduce EV stats by street, then the players will be better able to examine the hand history results.

I don't think that online poker sites are rigged; except against me last year; not in 2008 though. I do believe that the long run is not measured in tens of thousands of hands, or even hundreds of thousands, but in millions of hands which is why it can seem rigged or non-random to many players.
JPFisher55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 11:47 PM   #12717
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
That's what I thought. The auditors audit the hand histories like the audit in "spadebidder." I look forward to reading his examination of the turn and river cards.
I spent some time working on that part today actually. So far I've devised the 20 or so poker-relevant patterns to measure for turn and river cards and I'm finishing the frequency calculations tomorrow. Then I'll be ready to run the scans and publish them.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 12:31 AM   #12718
JPFisher55
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 3,425
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I spent some time working on that part today actually. So far I've devised the 20 or so poker-relevant patterns to measure for turn and river cards and I'm finishing the frequency calculations tomorrow. Then I'll be ready to run the scans and publish them.
I'll be curious to see the stats on the turn or river being the third card to a flush. Seems to happen in my hands a lot, but runs in streaks.
JPFisher55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 01:04 AM   #12719
smithcommajohn
grinder
 
smithcommajohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: acceptance
Posts: 533
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I spent some time working on that part today actually. So far I've devised the 20 or so poker-relevant patterns to measure for turn and river cards and I'm finishing the frequency calculations tomorrow. Then I'll be ready to run the scans and publish them.
"I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."

I know you're just one person, but the quote seemed applicable.
smithcommajohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 04:27 AM   #12720
signuptoday
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,283
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I spent some time working on that part today actually. So far I've devised the 20 or so poker-relevant patterns to measure for turn and river cards and I'm finishing the frequency calculations tomorrow. Then I'll be ready to run the scans and publish them.
can you break the test?
say 1 billion hand on star this is star
1 billion hand on ftp, this is ftp
instead putting all the different site together
signuptoday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 05:12 AM   #12721
signuptoday
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,283
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

spadebidder
why don't you just make the software and charge the donks/disbeliever/rigtard to pay for it.
i don't mean any disrepect to the software you currently sell (i'm a customer)
but a meanless software like that, it can cost twice as much as spadeye, and sell 10 times more.
like what josem say
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
That's why the best test of the legitimacy of any shuffle is the players who are able to conduct their own audits, 24/7.
not only rigtard is big market because majority of the players lose, and there will certainly a large amount of nonrigtard that purchase it.
Monteroy would buy it.
signuptoday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 11:01 AM   #12722
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by signuptoday View Post
i don't mean any disrepect to the software you currently sell (i'm a customer)
but a meanless software like that, it can cost twice as much as spadeye,
That isn't me.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 11:03 AM   #12723
smithcommajohn
grinder
 
smithcommajohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: acceptance
Posts: 533
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'm no rigtard, but I've said before that I would pay for software that would allow me to run my own audits.
smithcommajohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 12:14 PM   #12724
Monteroy
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,097
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I wouldn't bother as I know many others (genuine stats guys, curious players and some paranoid guys) would buy whatever this guy thinks is being sold, use it and share their results.

Kind of like what is happening now anyway.

Not sure why "players doing their own audits" would actually change anything with regard to this topic. Many already do this.

People who need it to be rigged to justify their losses will always believe it is rigged against them. If they ran an audit and it came back negative all that would prove is that it must be rigged in a way that audits cannot detect. Look at how spade's insanely detailed study is being received by them.

The riggie mind works in creative ways.
Monteroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 01:41 PM   #12725
smithcommajohn
grinder
 
smithcommajohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: acceptance
Posts: 533
re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
I wouldn't bother as I know many others (genuine stats guys, curious players and some paranoid guys) would buy whatever this guy thinks is being sold, use it and share their results.

Kind of like what is happening now anyway.
It hasn't happened yet, to my knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Not sure why "players doing their own audits" would actually change anything with regard to this topic. Many already do this.
A few of us have run the most basic of audits (hole card frequencies), but I don't know of anyone doing deep analysis like spadebidder is attempting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
People who need it to be rigged to justify their losses will always believe it is rigged against them. If they ran an audit and it came back negative all that would prove is that it must be rigged in a way that audits cannot detect. Look at how spade's insanely detailed study is being received by them.

The riggie mind works in creative ways.
While I agree that there will always be diehards that refuse to see the truth, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be searching for it.

No disrespect to spadebidder, because I do truly appreciate his efforts and admire his tenacity, but his study has only scratched the surface and proves very little as of yet. Most of us knew the hole cards were not out of line, and I never suspected flops to be out of alignment either (though some have). Even turns and rivers I doubt will show anything particularly unusual (as compared strictly with the other community cards). My concerns have always been in the relationship of the community cards to the hands held by those who have chosen to remain in the hand, and the relationships of hands played between particular users.

As humans, we tend to see/imagine patterns. Some are better at spotting patterns than others, real or imaginary. I'm not saying riggies are better at seeing patterns, but they are certainly acknowledging their existence.

I see MANY patterns in online poker, real or imaginary. I think only the unobservant or the disingenuous would say otherwise, but that is my opinion.
smithcommajohn is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive