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Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
Voters: 9860. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-19-2010, 07:48 PM   #12351
tk1133
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
You aren't even making sense now (not that you were making a whole lot of it previously). I'm done feeding this particular troll and I hope others do the same.
Bout time...
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Old 01-19-2010, 10:22 PM   #12352
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by TwoMoos View Post
You "all knew" just like you all know it's not rigged.
Hey TwoMoos! What do you think of spadebidder's results so far? www.spadebidder.com



p.s: While TK can be infuriating at times, he can also be funny. The crying wrestling fan gave me a chuckle, and he has the occasional good one liner.
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:42 PM   #12353
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
Those machines with the arm on the right side and the reels that spin round and round.

If you knew anything about brick and mortar you would know that live poker is usually a loser for casinos.
Wouldn't it only make sense then, using your logic, that B&M casinos rig their poker games to feed the rake and keep the fish in action? If online sites would rig it despite making them millions of dollars a day in rake, surely live rooms that are losing money all the time would be willing to put some action flops out.

When was the last time your local Shuffle Master was audited?
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:25 AM   #12354
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

For the most part, B&M's do not profit much on poker games. If they charge session, that's different.

Online sites:
-Operate out of unregulated offshore jurisdictions - check
-Employing a rng dealing program without inspection - check
-Freedom to do whatever you want - CHECK < -- that's a good one
-An increasing number of ppl becoming aware of the abnormalities and shady foundations of these sites - check .

If anyone can form a cogent argument fas to why a party/parties would not "rig" a site for more profit, please post it. I am simply curious as to why they inspire so much confidence among online players.

Last edited by Trogd0r; 01-20-2010 at 12:29 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:47 AM   #12355
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Trogd0r View Post
For the most part, B&M's do not profit much on poker games. If they charge session, that's different.

Online sites:
-Operate out of unregulated offshore jurisdictions - check
-Employing a rng dealing program without inspection - check
-Freedom to do whatever you want - CHECK < -- that's a good one
-An increasing number of ppl becoming aware of the abnormalities and shady foundations of these sites - check .

If anyone can form a cogent argument fas to why a party/parties would not "rig" a site for more profit, please post it. I am simply curious as to why they inspire so much confidence among online players.
Did you read ANY part of this thread before making this post?
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:04 AM   #12356
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

825 pages. So, not more than a couple back.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:07 AM   #12357
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Trogd0r View Post
Online sites:
-Operate out of unregulated offshore jurisdictions - check
Not true of all sites (both the unregulated and "offshore" bits.)
Quote:
-Employing a rng dealing program without inspection - check
Again, not true of all sites.
Quote:
-Freedom to do whatever you want - CHECK < -- that's a good one
That's strike 3.
Quote:
-An increasing number of ppl becoming aware of the abnormalities and shady foundations of these sites - check .
Abnormalities and shady foundations such as? You do realize that just making a statement doesn't make what you say true, right?
Quote:
If anyone can form a cogent argument fas to why a party/parties would not "rig" a site for more profit, please post it.
You're the one who just said people are becoming aware of abnormalities, go ahead and point some out. Hell, point one out with any kind of proof beyond a single hand history or faulty memory.
Quote:
I am simply curious as to why they inspire so much confidence among online players.
For some reason, when no evidence has been presented that something is crooked, and lots of evidence has been presented that something is fair, I tend to believe it to be fair.

Pretty stupid of me, I know, but you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:09 AM   #12358
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Trogd0r View Post
825 pages. So, not more than a couple back.
You don't have to go back too far, there are lots of explanations. You might want to check our Spadebidder's website: www.spadebidder.com as well.

The short answer is: whether or not someone would want to rig the deck, it is very difficult to do without getting caught. Spadebidder's massive study shows why. Any rigging that is done to an extent that would affect profits would show up in the stats.

Do yourself a favour, read a substantial portion of this thread, just skim over the multitude of insults and focus on the substantive parts. There is lots of good stuff in here. It's just a bit burried.

Also: set your posts per page to 100.
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:02 AM   #12359
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogd0r View Post
Online sites:
-Operate out of unregulated offshore jurisdictions - check
No, they do not.
Quote:
-Employing a rng dealing program without inspection - check
No, they do not.
Quote:
-Freedom to do whatever you want - CHECK < -- that's a good one
No, they do not.
Quote:
-An increasing number of ppl becoming aware of the abnormalities and shady foundations of these sites - check .
No, there are not. The deals are legit, and you just seem to be a lying liar that lies.
Quote:
If anyone can form a cogent argument fas to why a party/parties would not "rig" a site for more profit, please post it. I am simply curious as to why they inspire so much confidence among online players.
The fact that you believe people would steal if they could is a reflection on your own lack of integrity, not a reflection on online poker.
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Old 01-20-2010, 04:50 AM   #12360
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate"

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Seriously, I don't remember this, but **** you QPW
Sorry, tk1133.

You make so many outlandish statements that I didn't take you seriously.

That was inexcusable on my part so my sincere apologies for a crass and insensitive post.
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:19 AM   #12361
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

So many of the riggies here need to read this article: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...nl_6004.4.2.11

Go down to where the author talks about Seeing patterns and Holding on to losers
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:28 AM   #12362
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Hey TwoMoos! What do you think of spadebidder's results so far? www.spadebidder.com



p.s: While TK can be infuriating at times, he can also be funny. The crying wrestling fan gave me a chuckle, and he has the occasional good one liner.

I did and when I saw that

[ Pair & 3+gap rainbow] 4.561% 4.574% 13

was the biggest off expected it made me wonder why so many riggedologists (or riggies - have to admit that is annoyingly cute) have not been up in arms about the clear patterns that exist on flops that

have a pair and 3+gap and are rainbow


I mean come on, anyone could notice that even though ironically this would be one of the least "action" flops possible.

Hmm, it must be that they intentionally add some of these to hide for the fact how they rig other ways. Yeah, that explains it, I knew the rainbow flops with a pair and a 3+ gap were involved somehow...

By the way, the detail of his site does give some jarring perspective and depth compared with the relatively tiny areas that genuine riggedologists/riggies seem fixated by.
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:33 AM   #12363
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

want to make a bet.

I say the 1058 people that voted no so far are signicantly better in poker than the 633 people that voted yes. Anybody out of these 633 interested?
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:24 AM   #12364
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
By the way, the detail of his site does give some jarring perspective and depth compared with the relatively tiny areas that genuine riggedologists/riggies seem fixated by.
Funny how not one riggedologist has commented on the actual results.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:30 AM   #12365
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Nah, not funny really. And kind of expected.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:44 AM   #12366
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Funny how not one riggedologist has commented on the actual results.
From the word go it was pretty obvious that the results were going to be -EV for the 'tards.
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:41 AM   #12367
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

All good QPW, no hard feelings...

And we as Rigtards, don't understand what EV means, we're losing players, it doesn't matter what it means. It would be like asking a man with no arms how fast he can throw a baseball.

We only look at things like 1, 2 and 3 outters. Which has evolved our play. Now, I only play big pots when I'm a huge underdog. I haven't mastered the art of "donkinism" but am striving to inflect as many bad beats and suck outs as possible. That's how our play has evolved....

I get horrible migranes trying to understand Spade's results, the first time I read it I had to lay down for an hour...
Seriously tho,

After the headache wore off I found that his research shows evidence of a NON-RIGGED RNG.

Last edited by tk1133; 01-20-2010 at 10:44 AM. Reason: 4 outters are for "cats"
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:05 AM   #12368
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Hey TwoMoos! What do you think of spadebidder's results so far? www.spadebidder.com



p.s: While TK can be infuriating at times, he can also be funny. The crying wrestling fan gave me a chuckle, and he has the occasional good one liner.
I feel like I have a peashooter and he has nuclear smart bombs.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:35 PM   #12369
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I feel like I have a peashooter and he has nuclear smart bombs.
Fair enough, its not the easiest material. So let's just accept that you and I are not qualified to understand a lot of it. It may even be completely wrong for all I know. But what do we have? We have a lot of data that's been analysed by an expert who has concluded the deal is fair.

Should we accept that conclusion without question? Of course not. However, I would think that at a minimum it should provide some comfort. Now if someone looks at that stuf and shows that the methodology is all wrong, etc etc then maybe we should back off from that comfort. But absent that this is pretty good evidence that the deal is fair for the sites studied.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:41 PM   #12370
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Now if someone looks at that stuf and shows that the methodology is all wrong, etc etc then maybe we should back off from that comfort. But absent that this is pretty good evidence that the deal is fair for the sites studied.
I said I wouldn't check this thread for a while but I'm weak.

To be clear, the data published so far is strong evidence that the deal up through the the FLOP is random, and it also pretty much proves that flops have some predictable but small biases caused by player behavior preflop (since we don't deal all flops). I'm still working on turns and rivers, to see if suckouts happen at the expected rates or not, and if not then I'll try to determine why. Some of the rigged theories only involve suckouts on late streets. So we can't let those arguments die just yet. Riggies don't lose the faith!
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:49 PM   #12371
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I said I wouldn't check this thread for a while but I'm weak.

To be clear, the data published so far is strong evidence that the deal up through the the FLOP is random, and it also pretty much proves that flops have some predictable but small biases caused by player behavior preflop (since we don't deal all flops). I'm still working on turns and rivers, to see if suckouts happen at the expected rates or not, and if not then I'll try to determine why. Some of the rigged theories only involve suckouts on late streets. So we can't let those arguments die just yet. Riggies don't lose the faith!
I usually add the caveat "results so far". Forgot in that post.

Great work spadebidder,
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:23 PM   #12372
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Tk, I think we discussed this awhile back. As I understood that, it referenced the bots scraping or hooking (forget the actual lingo) the image of the pictures of the bot's hole cards. NOT somehow hooking other players' down cards. (and no, I'm not into this stuff, I looked it up when you brought it up last time.)

I'm no fan of what Indiana and his gang do, but let's not make it worse than it is now.
Yeah, this. Seeing other people hole cards is illegal. I don't do illegal things, neither support anyone doing such.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:38 PM   #12373
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Yeah, this. Seeing other people hole cards is illegal. I don't do illegal things, neither support anyone doing such.
Come on...keep it real V8...Where did I come up w/ "snooping" then? Why after I blasted your website did most of "this kind of stuff" get removed from your site?

I am not attacking you for what you've done and I've heard many good things about you since.

Prove them right....
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:46 PM   #12374
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Come on...keep it real V8...Where did I come up w/ "snooping" then? Why after I blasted your website did most of "this kind of stuff" get removed from your site?
This is nonsense. Illegal content like hacking hole cards has never "lived" for more than an hour anywhere I'm in charge. I'm not interested to engage with you in debates, therefore I wouldn't discuss this further.

As a side note, I can actually tell you how I personally treat the most annoying rigtards. There was one especially dumb, which after some investigation also happened to be involved in illegal activities elsewhere in the net. I not only banned him, I furthermore recovered his complete name and address and reported him to his ISP, and to the UK police computer crime investigation and forensics litigation support department.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:47 PM   #12375
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I said I wouldn't check this thread for a while but I'm weak.
It's like some kind of weird drug, right? I love this thread. Keep up the good work, btw.
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