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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:20 AM   #12251
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Mr. Giblet View Post
I BELIEVE that many of the men/women/ young people who post here do not actually play for cash.

SO WHAT? DO YOU?

I have been in games where the DEALER was dealing dirty. NOt a casino. But still.

AND YOUR POINT IS?

I have found out through THIS place. That both ULTIMATE BET and ABSOLUTE
were proven tricksters.

NO, THEY WERE NOT. IT WAS INDIVIDUALS ACTING ON THEIR OWN THROUGH SUPERUSER ACCOUNTS!


I have the feeling that many here do not play poker for money so to them it is a mental exercise to jabber about things which truely DO NOT inform or matter.

SPEAKING OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T PLAY AND ONLY JABBER (LOOK IN MIRROR NOW)..


THe juvenile pictures that so so many have as their PHOTO tells the tale better then the teller I am afraid.

USE ENGLISH.. EVEN IF IT'S NOT YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE, SIR.

THANK YOU

YOU'RE WELCOME -GIMMICK-
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Old 01-18-2010, 07:53 AM   #12252
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Dude, seriously, you are not the only intelligent person here. I have scored as hi as a 149 on an IQ test. So yes, I am a severe under acheiver. And yes, I say some stupid things. That is just how I operate, I get in and make mistakes and try to learn from them. Just dont let stupid stuff I or anyone else has said stop you from you posting here. You are appreciated and needed in these threads.
Ofcourse you have a brain, its why you question things. Unlike the ******s here who just assume.
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Old 01-18-2010, 09:47 AM   #12253
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokerProLv View Post
Ofcourse you have a brain, its why you question things. Unlike the ******s here who just assume.
Are you referring to yourself?

You are a ****** who just assumes online poker is rigged because you have the mindset of a person who cannot believe that anyone could possibly fail to take an opportunity to scam people if it was available.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:19 AM   #12254
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Are you referring to yourself?

You are a ****** who just assumes online poker is rigged because you have the mindset of a person who cannot believe that anyone could possibly fail to take an opportunity to scam people if it was available.
In an anonomous "Arena" such as Online Poker, I feel that its more then justified to have this attitude and stance on the subject.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:21 AM   #12255
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

And the Super users didn't act on their own. Hence they were forced to sell their company. It's also speculated that a former high ranking employee of the KGC helped in cheat customers...B/c the KGC covers it up, it means it was done by individuals?
Whoever wrote that up top, QPW, why didn't you correct that?
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:44 AM   #12256
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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In an anonomous "Arena" such as Online Poker, I feel that its more then justified to have this attitude and stance on the subject.
So what you are saying is: "Because no one knows my name I will slander people and companies without a scrap of evidence as I cannot believe that anyone would pass up a chance to scam someone".

That tells us an awful lot about the way your mind works, tk1133.

None of it very pleasant.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:45 AM   #12257
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
And the Super users didn't act on their own. Hence they were forced to sell their company. It's also speculated that a former high ranking employee of the KGC helped in cheat customers...B/c the KGC covers it up, it means it was done by individuals?
Whoever wrote that up top, QPW, why didn't you correct that?
What are you wittering on about, now?
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:47 AM   #12258
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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So what you are saying is: "Because no one knows my name I will slander people and companies without a scrap of evidence as I cannot believe that anyone would pass up a chance to scam someone".

That tells us an awful lot about the way your mind works, tk1133.

None of it very pleasant.
The way lots of minds work...The one's that matter atleast...
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:00 AM   #12259
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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The way lots of minds work...The one's that matter atleast...
You really do believe that everyone must be as crooked as you?
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:29 AM   #12260
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Honestly, does it really matter whether all online poker owners are dishonest or some of them? No one can argue that some may be honest, some may not be. That's not the main issue in the question of whether the deal is being rigged. The question is can it be done without it showing in the stats? If not, then it is extremely unlikely that that is a manner in which sites are cheating the customers and we shouldn't be paranoid about it. And if they are cheating the customers in that way, it is very likely they will be caught.

You guys don't seem to trust Spadebidder as an expert here, although his explanations have been incredibly detailed, but you don't seem to have any actual reason for doubting him. He has put his explanations out there, explained exactly why he has come to the conclusion that he has. I haven't seen one counterargument outside of secret undetectable schemes that somehow only the most devilishly clever programmers can come up with.

Sure, most of us aren't qualified to give a counterargument. Fair enough. But is that reason to doubt? Or is it reason to say, you know, I don't really understand this stuff. Here is one very skilled stats guy who has provided really detailed reasons for believing that the deal is random on the major sites. I wonder if anyone out there has equally persuasive data going the other way? Then go look for it.

But if you can't find any, then that is not a reason to just shout "well my gut says its rigged so it must be!"

This thread, when it comes down to it, is about critical thinking. This gets lost through the insults which is why if anyone really wants to convince the other side they should just drop the insults. You may find it fun, but don't be surprised - or complain - when your message gets completely lost in the shuffle (pun intended).
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:44 AM   #12261
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

You really wanna know what changed it for me? I wrote this on here before, but I was playing a 33 dollar tourny on XXX. Not a .25 cent, but a 33 dollar tourny. I have 24k in chips, while blinds are at 50-100. 5th place out of about 800. I'm three handed on the bb w/ a 8, 3 limpers in front of me. I check. Flop comes A 8 K, raibow. I check, player2 bets 400, player 3 calls, I move all in b/c player 3 has 27k in chips, in 3rd place, did not want a suck out to knock me out of the tourny....

Player 2 folds and player 3 insta calls w/ JQ off suit. 27k, 270bb's with JQ off and miracly hits a ten on the turn for a gut shot str8 to knock me out of the tourny. Who does that?
Of course I have no proof as of now, b/c this was 3 years ago...But that's the honest to god's truth....Now you tell me that's dellusional?
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:04 PM   #12262
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
You really wanna know what changed it for me? I wrote this on here before, but I was playing a 33 dollar tourny on XXX. Not a .25 cent, but a 33 dollar tourny. I have 24k in chips, while blinds are at 50-100. 5th place out of about 800. I'm three handed on the bb w/ a 8, 3 limpers in front of me. I check. Flop comes A 8 K, raibow. I check, player2 bets 400, player 3 calls, I move all in b/c player 3 has 27k in chips, in 3rd place, did not want a suck out to knock me out of the tourny....

Player 2 folds and player 3 insta calls w/ JQ off suit. 27k, 270bb's with JQ off and miracly hits a ten on the turn for a gut shot str8 to knock me out of the tourny. Who does that?
Of course I have no proof as of now, b/c this was 3 years ago...But that's the honest to god's truth....Now you tell me that's dellusional?
I'm not at all clear on what conclusion you expect anyone to draw. Someone made a boneheaded move and sucked out on you. He may have erroneously thought that the dead money in the pot made up for the long shot, he might just like to gamboooooolllllll! I'm sure that sucked for you. But to turn that into a massive conspiracy with no other evidence? How do you justify that? Just because the owners of the sites MAY be dishonest? They deserve your constant attacks without evidence? Do you consider that to be moral?

No one is not saying don't be vigilant. Ironically, its the "shills" who have not just been telling people to be vigilant, but telling them how to be vigilant. You TK, and other rigtards never respond to the substantive posts (or if you have you've dismissed them) and just repeat over and over how naive the "shills" are. You refuse to even look at your stats (or if you do, you don't talk about it). You repeat over and over again how powerless you are, when that simply isn't true.
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:06 PM   #12263
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
I'm not at all clear on what conclusion you expect anyone to draw. Someone made a boneheaded move and sucked out on you. He may have erroneously thought that the dead money in the pot made up for the long shot, he might just like to gamboooooolllllll! I'm sure that sucked for you. But to turn that into a massive conspiracy with no other evidence? How do you justify that? Just because the owners of the sites MAY be dishonest? They deserve your constant attacks without evidence? Do you consider that to be moral?

No one is not saying don't be vigilant. Ironically, its the "shills" who have not just been telling people to be vigilant, but telling them how to be vigilant. You TK, and other rigtards never respond to the substantive posts (or if you have you've dismissed them) and just repeat over and over how naive the "shills" are. You refuse to even look at your stats (or if you do, you don't talk about it). You repeat over and over again how powerless you are, when that simply isn't true.

That's where it started is what I should of said. This site deserves my constant attacks WITHOUT me posting evidence....

There's lots of things I've never told this thread....
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:17 PM   #12264
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
You really wanna know what changed it for me? I wrote this on here before, but I was playing a 33 dollar tourny on XXX. Not a .25 cent, but a 33 dollar tourny. I have 24k in chips, while blinds are at 50-100. 5th place out of about 800. I'm three handed on the bb w/ a 8, 3 limpers in front of me. I check. Flop comes A 8 K, raibow. I check, player2 bets 400, player 3 calls, I move all in b/c player 3 has 27k in chips, in 3rd place, did not want a suck out to knock me out of the tourny....

Player 2 folds and player 3 insta calls w/ JQ off suit. 27k, 270bb's with JQ off and miracly hits a ten on the turn for a gut shot str8 to knock me out of the tourny. Who does that?
Of course I have no proof as of now, b/c this was 3 years ago...But that's the honest to god's truth....Now you tell me that's dellusional?
Of course this is a delusional belief.

It is based on the belief that a major site would alter the game of a $33 (as if that is a major amount) tournament, in which they already received their rake to somehow deprive specifically you of a hand win.

It is a classic case of delusions of grandeur. The reality is the site could not care if you won or lost a hand in a tournament, and that reality is a much colder one than yours which has you at the center of their universe as well. You are not that important. Nobody is.

Your other significant logic flaw is you cannot accept rational explanations of others behavior. Maybe it was just a bad player playing badly.

Look at this hand from the other day. Note the tournament is $55 so it is nearly twice as important as a 33 one...


PokerStars Game #38319978303: Tournament #262010577, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2010/01/17 17:26:08 ET
Table '262010577 421' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: BadKiwi (24166 in chips)
Seat 2: Bergmannen (17790 in chips)
Seat 3: Glenmorangie (5375 in chips)
Seat 4: Monteroy (13528 in chips)
Seat 5: N2k-0 (7190 in chips)
Seat 6: aveiks (15784 in chips)
Seat 7: Lacertin (10065 in chips)
Seat 8: munchenHB (8207 in chips)
Seat 9: RManjura (22476 in chips)
BadKiwi: posts the ante 50
Bergmannen: posts the ante 50
Glenmorangie: posts the ante 50
Monteroy: posts the ante 50
N2k-0: posts the ante 50
aveiks: posts the ante 50
Lacertin: posts the ante 50
munchenHB: posts the ante 50
RManjura: posts the ante 50
Monteroy: posts small blind 200
N2k-0: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Kd Kc]
aveiks: folds
Lacertin: folds
munchenHB: folds
RManjura: folds
BadKiwi: folds
Bergmannen: folds
Glenmorangie: raises 4925 to 5325 and is all-in
Monteroy: raises 8153 to 13478 and is all-in
N2k-0: folds
Uncalled bet (8153) returned to Monteroy
*** FLOP *** [Ts 8d Ah]
*** TURN *** [Ts 8d Ah] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [Ts 8d Ah 3c] [8c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Monteroy: shows [Kd Kc] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
Glenmorangie: shows [9h 8s] (three of a kind, Eights)
Glenmorangie collected 11500 from pot


Glenmorangie was raising and 3 bet shoving every hand (the funny part was people kept raising and folding to his shoves even though he always did that play).


He kind of messes up that whole small stacks lose too much rigged beliefs, so how about we go with the Stars favors donk concept. That's a popular riggedology belief.

Let's check his stats

http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...6B79A.html?t=2

Oops. He is quite good.

What actually was the case here was he was messing around in a MTT that was well below what he normally plays.



There was no evil agendas here, just a guy having fun playing in a maniac style who got lucky for a while before he busted. That's it.


This is why when you ask if you are delusional for creating paranoid conspiracy beliefs based on a single hand like this years ago the answer is a clear yes.


Just work on becoming a better player.
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:21 PM   #12265
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Mont. I didn't read your post in full yet. But I have openly admitted that I don't believe any RNG is rigged or favors any other player....
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:21 PM   #12266
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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That's where it started is what I should of said. This site deserves my constant attacks WITHOUT me posting evidence....

There's lots of things I've never told this thread....
Well then, with all due respect TK, WTF are you doing here? If you have evidence, then provide it! Let it be evaluated. You will see all these "shills" line up behind you if it holds up! That's how 2+2 has brought problems to light in the past.

Otherwise, its just libel.
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:12 PM   #12267
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Well then, with all due respect TK, WTF are you doing here? If you have evidence, then provide it! Let it be evaluated. You will see all these "shills" line up behind you if it holds up! That's how 2+2 has brought problems to light in the past.

Otherwise, its just libel.
I've been saying the RNG is not rigged...I'm not going to create other threads to draw attention to myself in that manner, just to be merged...

I choose "life...."
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:17 PM   #12268
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Honestly, does it really matter whether all online poker owners are dishonest or some of them? No one can argue that some may be honest, some may not be. That's not the main issue in the question of whether the deal is being rigged. The question is can it be done without it showing in the stats? If not, then it is extremely unlikely that that is a manner in which sites are cheating the customers and we shouldn't be paranoid about it. And if they are cheating the customers in that way, it is very likely they will be caught.

You guys don't seem to trust Spadebidder as an expert here, although his explanations have been incredibly detailed, but you don't seem to have any actual reason for doubting him. He has put his explanations out there, explained exactly why he has come to the conclusion that he has. I haven't seen one counterargument outside of secret undetectable schemes that somehow only the most devilishly clever programmers can come up with.

Sure, most of us aren't qualified to give a counterargument. Fair enough. But is that reason to doubt? Or is it reason to say, you know, I don't really understand this stuff. Here is one very skilled stats guy who has provided really detailed reasons for believing that the deal is random on the major sites. I wonder if anyone out there has equally persuasive data going the other way? Then go look for it.

But if you can't find any, then that is not a reason to just shout "well my gut says its rigged so it must be!"

This thread, when it comes down to it, is about critical thinking. This gets lost through the insults which is why if anyone really wants to convince the other side they should just drop the insults. You may find it fun, but don't be surprised - or complain - when your message gets completely lost in the shuffle (pun intended).
Good post.
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:41 PM   #12269
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I've been saying the RNG is not rigged...I'm not going to create other threads to draw attention to myself in that manner, just to be merged...

I choose "life...."
If you have evidence of wrongdoing, you should bring it forward. Do it through a mod if you are uncomfortable coming out yourself. But if you're not willing to present what you have, then you should keep quiet. Just attacking while hiding behind "you don't know what I know" is dishonest and unfair. You attack the companies' names without letting them know why or being able to defend themselves. That is not the "right" thing to do, whatever you may have convinced yourself.

PM a mod. PM any of the guys involved in uncovering the UB/AP scandal. You have something, bring it forward. Otherwise you should stop your incessant attacks.
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:49 PM   #12270
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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If you have evidence of wrongdoing, you should bring it forward. Do it through a mod if you are uncomfortable coming out yourself. But if you're not willing to present what you have, then you should keep quiet. Just attacking while hiding behind "you don't know what I know" is dishonest and unfair. You attack the companies' names without letting them know why or being able to defend themselves. That is not the "right" thing to do, whatever you may have convinced yourself.

PM a mod. PM any of the guys involved in uncovering the UB/AP scandal. You have something, bring it forward. Otherwise you should stop your incessant attacks.
Agree'd.
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:53 PM   #12271
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
If you have evidence of wrongdoing, you should bring it forward. Do it through a mod if you are uncomfortable coming out yourself. But if you're not willing to present what you have, then you should keep quiet. Just attacking while hiding behind "you don't know what I know" is dishonest and unfair. You attack the companies' names without letting them know why or being able to defend themselves. That is not the "right" thing to do, whatever you may have convinced yourself.

PM a mod. PM any of the guys involved in uncovering the UB/AP scandal. You have something, bring it forward. Otherwise you should stop your incessant attacks.
I actually disagree with you here. People shout all the time about stuff based on hunches and emotions. That does not make it libel, just that without any supporting evidence it pretty much ends at shouts that never really get heard or make a difference.

This thread is all about people shouting their paranoid beliefs or their legitimate beliefs in Lizard People. Many are just venting and some like even tk kind of know better and realize that all of their bluster is meaningless in and by itself without proof.

Sometimes they just like to vent. If they like adding "I know secrets" hey good for them. It makes them feel important.

Make fun of their logic gaps and reasoning skills, but the whole "you are perpetrating libel" is a tad over the top. It's not like any of the sites care about their secrets or beliefs, that's just part of doing business.
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:58 PM   #12272
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

LIZARD PEOPLE?

Is this a joke.

PLease be serious. There are people who have concerns and are lookking for information.

Some have been kind to provide. Do not ridicule.

This is perhaps maybe why INTERNET POKER is a problem in U.S. Besides Indian Tribes with their bribes. As aside. Worst poker rooms have been Foxwood.

But if there was more openness and legal punishment for thieves at places like ULTIMAT BET. And the other.
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:02 PM   #12273
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Good post.
So I take it your bet with Monteroy fell through because you were unwilling to escrow the money?
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:02 PM   #12274
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I actually disagree with you here. People shout all the time about stuff based on hunches and emotions. That does not make it libel, just that without any supporting evidence it pretty much ends at shouts that never really get heard or make a difference.

This thread is all about people shouting their paranoid beliefs or their legitimate beliefs in Lizard People. Many are just venting and some like even tk kind of know better and realize that all of their bluster is meaningless in and by itself without proof.

Sometimes they just like to vent. If they like adding "I know secrets" hey good for them. It makes them feel important.

Make fun of their logic gaps and reasoning skills, but the whole "you are perpetrating libel" is a tad over the top. It's not like any of the sites care about their secrets or beliefs, that's just part of doing business.
Well, it's probably technically libel (or would be if he's identified a particular site, I can't recall if he did, if not, then probably not.) But in any event, from wiki:

Quote:
In law, defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for spoken words), and libel (for written or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. It is usually, but not always,[1] a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).
That being said, the damages are likely zero or close to zero (unless the company could show that someone quit the site, for example, explicitly due to TK's post).

That said, let's not overblow it. Whether or not its technically hyperbole, I was indeed using it in a hyperbolic sense in order to make a point.
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:50 PM   #12275
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
You really wanna know what changed it for me? I wrote this on here before, but I was playing a 33 dollar tourny on XXX. Not a .25 cent, but a 33 dollar tourny. I have 24k in chips, while blinds are at 50-100. 5th place out of about 800. I'm three handed on the bb w/ a 8, 3 limpers in front of me. I check. Flop comes A 8 K, raibow. I check, player2 bets 400, player 3 calls, I move all in b/c player 3 has 27k in chips, in 3rd place, did not want a suck out to knock me out of the tourny....

Player 2 folds and player 3 insta calls w/ JQ off suit. 27k, 270bb's with JQ off and miracly hits a ten on the turn for a gut shot str8 to knock me out of the tourny. Who does that?
Of course I have no proof as of now, b/c this was 3 years ago...But that's the honest to god's truth....Now you tell me that's dellusional?
$33? Really? This isn't a large sum of money to many people even if it is to you or I. However bad this play is he could be rich, stupid or drunk, or cheating as you seem to be suggesting.

Please do the following, if you haven't already:

1) Post the hand history to prove you aren't just making it up

2) Post the sharkscope / poker rankings / tableratings stats of the guy in question

Let me guess - you havent got the hand history? The poker site has deleted it? You conveniently don't read this? You only respond if you like what you see?
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