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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:19 PM   #12226
DonkoTheClown
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I found the answer to everyone's questions about rigged poker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5S...x=0&playnext=1
Rick is definitely rigged. See how he was dodging those two outers on the river with his un natural and badly choreographed dance moves? lol
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:55 PM   #12227
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Can't more be done to filter out gimmick accounts?

And can't you guys take your prop bet to PM's? Just sayin. Lots of posts and it's getting VERY repetitive (a big waste of space imo).

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Old 01-17-2010, 07:57 PM   #12228
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

What If...

- A big online site employed progamming that adjusted to players tendencies to maximize their bottom line based on historicals and behavioural patterns. The programming could be intricate and evasive so that it would be very difficult to show manipulation in the hand histories.

- What if they also employed prop players to play accounts, build stats, using a programmed edge and then show up in the 2+2 threads to talk about how online poker is not rigged.

-What if they also cut their staff in on the profit so that they have a stake in how well the sites do. They might also incent these people to show up in the threads to defend their share.

- What if these people who work for the site where completely clueless about what is really going on because they have no access to the programming code and these employees were basically sheep who believed anything their employer told them so they could keep a really fun job working in the online poker industry.

- What if programmers who were privy to the illegal programming and cheating kept their mouth shut for fear of being prosecuted themselves. What if they feared for themselves and their family's lives if they were to report the activies to the authorities.

- What if the so called inspections and regulations were just set up as a front. What if these organizations were run and funded by the site?

- What if lots of break even players who are working hard to improve their game were losing big because of the manipulation?

- What if lots of really good players were breaking even due to the manipulation in the programming?

- What if the site uses programmed bots in tournaments to get some of the money at or near the top of the prize pool so that the site can make even more money?

- What if they did this in cash games also?

- What if family and friends get preferential programming for their account so they can log in and win money also?

I know...a lot of "What if's" with no proof. But seriously, is this so far fetched that it cannot be happening at one of the sites out there right now? I am not trolling or trying to irritate, I just have a genuine concern.
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:58 PM   #12229
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
What If...

- A big online site employed progamming that adjusted to players tendencies to maximize their bottom line based on historicals and behavioural patterns. The programming could be intricate and evasive so that it would be very difficult to show manipulation in the hand histories.

- What if they also employed prop players to play accounts, build stats, using a programmed edge and then show up in the 2+2 threads to talk about how online poker is not rigged.

-What if they also cut their staff in on the profit so that they have a stake in how well the sites do. They might also incent these people to show up in the threads to defend their share.

- What if these people who work for the site where completely clueless about what is really going on because they have no access to the programming code and these employees were basically sheep who believed anything their employer told them so they could keep a really fun job working in the online poker industry.

- What if programmers who were privy to the illegal programming and cheating kept their mouth shut for fear of being prosecuted themselves. What if they feared for themselves and their family's lives if they were to report the activies to the authorities.

- What if the so called inspections and regulations were just set up as a front. What if these organizations were run and funded by the site?

- What if lots of break even players who are working hard to improve their game were losing big because of the manipulation?

- What if lots of really good players were breaking even due to the manipulation in the programming?

- What if the site uses programmed bots in tournaments to get some of the money at or near the top of the prize pool so that the site can make even more money?

- What if they did this in cash games also?

- What if family and friends get preferential programming for their account so they can log in and win money also?

I know...a lot of "What if's" with no proof. But seriously, is this so far fetched that it cannot be happening at one of the sites out there right now? I am not trolling or trying to irritate, I just have a genuine concern.
What if thought experiment done like this in this thread would stop a site from continuing this practice?

What if it deterred other sites from starting a practice like this?
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:05 PM   #12230
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
What if thought experiment done like this in this thread would stop a site from continuing this practice?

What if it deterred other sites from starting a practice like this?
What if you actually understood what Spadebidder has said about this over and over and over and over again? If the deal was being manipulated to any significant degree it would show up in the stats. He has explained why in the last day or so. If the manipulation is not enough to show up in the stats, how likely is it to significantly boost profits?
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:48 PM   #12231
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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
What if you actually understood what Spadebidder has said about this over and over and over and over again? If the deal was being manipulated to any significant degree it would show up in the stats. He has explained why in the last day or so. If the manipulation is not enough to show up in the stats, how likely is it to significantly boost profits?
There are all kinds of ways to improve profits that together would not show up in the hand histories to conclusively show a solid extra profit. We are talking about very powerful and sophisticated tools. Do you think that a site is really going to make their ploy readable by Spadebidder? I dont think so. They are going to bring people in who are far more advanced in this field than he is.

I am starting to wonder if you are a shill.

Or you are so innocent to think that the world is fair and just place where everyone and every group follows good ethical practice. If so, I wish there were more people like you, if you are genuinely the nice guy you seem to be. If you are not, than I retract that particular statement.
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Old 01-17-2010, 08:58 PM   #12232
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I BELIEVE that many of the men/women/ young people who post here do not actually play for cash.

I have been in games where the DEALER was dealing dirty. NOt a casino. But still.

I have found out through THIS place. That both ULTIMATE BET and ABSOLUTE
were proven tricksters.

I have the feeling that many here do not play poker for money so to them it is a mental exercise to jabber about things which truely DO NOT inform or matter.

THe juvenile pictures that so so many have as their PHOTO tells the tale better then the teller I am afraid.

THANK YOU
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:00 PM   #12233
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
There are all kinds of ways to improve profits that together would not show up in the hand histories to conclusively show a solid extra profit.
Please describe one way to improve profits a worthwhile amount by rigging the deal, that would not be detectable in hand histories.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:01 PM   #12234
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Seriously, is this all some elaborate Donko level type game? I miss the days when riggedologists genuinely thought the mafia was controlling the entropy effects. Simpler times.


You still have never posted your ID, you are a random unknown. Your word is worth exactly $0.

I don't do prop bets because most of the people who do them like this are just like you, whiny guys who will try to scam 5 or 50 bucks any way they can, and when very routine conditions are put up to ensure you will pay if you lose, all of a sudden the excuses start.

This is why it was a total waste of my time. My "counterprop" was only to ensure I got paid if you lost, nothing more. Give me a break, nobody will do the bet you want on your word that you will ever pay, but hey, good luck finding someone you can scam with your prop bets that you will never pay off if you lose. May be a good secondary source of income for you on top of that can collecting gig.

I'm tempted to do a prop bet about whether you actually have $50, but no way you will ever say your user ID here, so I will just wish you at this time...

All the best.

Dumbass.
Here's a good prop. You propose a prop. I counterpropose and suggest you post with a friend of mine.

Good?
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:05 PM   #12235
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'm taking this thread off my subscribe list and not looking at it for a while. I think it's starting to reduce my intelligence. I'll have some more useful hand stats published in a couple weeks.

Have fun.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:05 PM   #12236
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
There are all kinds of ways to improve profits that together would not show up in the hand histories to conclusively show a solid extra profit. We are talking about very powerful and sophisticated tools. Do you think that a site is really going to make their ploy readable by Spadebidder? I dont think so. They are going to bring people in who are far more advanced in this field than he is.

I am starting to wonder if you are a shill.

Or you are so innocent to think that the world is fair and just place where everyone and every group follows good ethical practice. If so, I wish there were more people like you, if you are genuinely the nice guy you seem to be. If you are not, than I retract that particular statement.
Donko, I'm not under any impression that the people who run poker sites are particularly honest. I don't know any of them. Some of them probably are, some probably aren't. But neither am I a fan of needless paranoia. I don't think that serves anyone's interests. Imagining magical algorithms that manipulate potentially millions of deals but don't show up under any of the statistics that Spadebidder is looking at is pure paranoia. Swing by the probability forum, see what those guys think of your undetectable schemes.

oh and +1 on throwing out the shill attack! That should eliminate all doubt on whether you are a rigtard or not. But I think I'm joining the others in giving up on you. Good luck and sleep well knowing that you are such a good player that the pokersites just have to keep you down.
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:07 PM   #12237
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
What if you actually understood what Spadebidder has said about this over and over and over and over again? If the deal was being manipulated to any significant degree it would show up in the stats. He has explained why in the last day or so. If the manipulation is not enough to show up in the stats, how likely is it to significantly boost profits?
Can you guys just ignore him and his gimmicks from now on and let a fresh
crop of riggedologists start posting?

If he understood what spade was saying he would have to acknowledge his losing was because of his play, not mystical forces. He has made it very clear he is not letting go of that hope for now, so just put him and prop boy on ignore. I already did (again for Donko).

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I'm taking this thread off my subscribe list and not looking at it for a while. I think it's starting to reduce my intelligence. I'll have some more useful hand stats published in a couple weeks.

Have fun.
Actually, not a bad idea (though I never subscribed to it).
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Old 01-17-2010, 10:24 PM   #12238
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I was about to reply to Donko's giant "what if?" lizard people post, then I realized it's pointless. Regardless of the replies, no matter how polite, he at best flat out ignores them, and at worst twists them to mean something completely different than what they actually said.

Intentionally or not, he's just a troll. A troll who hasn't played enough tournaments to have any idea of whether or not he's a winning player, yet still tries to use (faulty) statistics to prove that he's being punished by the sites for being so good.

I look forward to your reply calling me a shill. I'd like to know which site I need to hit up for my shilling fees, though, so give me a heads up.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:18 PM   #12239
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Originally Posted by otatop View Post
I was about to reply to Donko's giant "what if?" lizard people post, then I realized it's pointless. Regardless of the replies, no matter how polite, he at best flat out ignores them, and at worst twists them to mean something completely different than what they actually said.

Intentionally or not, he's just a troll. A troll who hasn't played enough tournaments to have any idea of whether or not he's a winning player, yet still tries to use (faulty) statistics to prove that he's being punished by the sites for being so good.

I look forward to your reply calling me a shill. I'd like to know which site I need to hit up for my shilling fees, though, so give me a heads up.
Well, according to Monteroy, I am just bad at it, so he is the expert and I just have no idea what I am talking about or doing.

I am not sure if you are a shill or not, probably not, but the way you guys jump in here so quickly and violently to defend online poker is just another red flag. Sure, I have no evidence that it is rigged, because I dont have anything more than my own experiences with it and my friends experiences with it. That is a good start though. Dont respond if you are irritated, I dont have a problem with that. I'll just keep posting daily to keep the suspicion alive to make sure that people are thinking about it. Again, I then hope that awareness straightens up any sites rigging and any other thinking about it. Dont get so insulted that I dont trust you guys. I dont know you, so why should I trust your word?

I'll say this, you do bring some decent arguments to the table, I dont resent you for that even though I believe otherwise. You very well could be right.

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 01-17-2010 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:22 PM   #12240
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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Please describe one way to improve profits a worthwhile amount by rigging the deal, that would not be detectable in hand histories.
I think I explained this to you. A very selective rig that allows a bot or a prop player to take big pots down in cash games and allows prop players or bots to get deeper in tournaments and make more money for the site. These could be so selective that you could not find them in the hand histories. They could be explained away by variance. This is just one of many approaches that could be going on that could add up to millions more a year for a site.

No, I dont have proof of this, but I want you guys to consider the possibility of this happening if you are not someone working for a site.

Are you really serious when you say that this couldnt be happening?

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 01-17-2010 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:29 PM   #12241
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Seriously though, if players are part of the policing of online poker, why not let parnoid but intelligent persons throw thoughts out there just in case one of us bumps into something that the math guys can make some sense of? Being nasty to them may chase one of the persons away who might find something of interest.

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 01-17-2010 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:41 PM   #12242
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Well, according to Monteroy, I am just bad at it, so he is the expert and I just have no idea what I am talking about or doing.
You know what, I am an expert in terms of your situation, so I will give our whole mess of a chat at each other closure by pretty much giving you the last genuine advice you will likely receive here, much like I tried to do way back at the start.

This is what you should do, even if for a 3 month trial:

1) Drop all this crazy rigged nonsense

I don't care if you are being genuine or making up weird theories at this point ( I have not even read your latest stuff, but I assume it will all help explain in an unprovable way why you lose)

Just drop it for 3 months and put a sign in big bold letters near your computer that says you will be allowed to think it is rigged again in April. You can do it, that's only a few months.

2) Join a coaching site

They are relatively cheap and you can watch all sorts of useful videos that will help you understand why your game is flawed. I watched all of Matt Matros' videos on Stox, and while his approach is not always ideal for the tournaments I am in, they were extremely informative in teaching how one should play a tournament with a short and long term perspective in terms of planning where you want to be at each stage.

You don't even consider concepts like that, you just wonder if you get too many bad beats.

3) Leave this thread and live in the MTT and STT forums (for the games you play) and read all of the threads there as well (I do, though I only post infrequently)

4) Download appropriate software to help you with your game including

Holdem Manager
Table Ninja (or equivalent)
Universal Replayer
Sit and Go Wizard (if doing those)

Drop the whole "I read souls live" belief systems online when playing $5 online tournaments. You know who says that at the tables? This guy.

http://www.pokerprolabs.com/KoBucks/pokerstars.aspx

Don't be him. Use software to see if the donks limp every hand for now, read their souls another day.


5) Pick a game type and concentrate at it. MTTs, SnGs, DONs, cash, whatever


Do this for 3 months, and if you are not satisfied, then go back to posting how the sites could be using micro nano technologoy to give you bad beats that are off set by undetectable good beats from other players who wore sweaters while eating chili and that's why you lose.

If you do 1-5 above, and I mean seriously do it including giving up riggedology cold turkey for 3 months, and if after you still think it is rigged, then seriously no problem at least you tried. Go nuts then posting what if "Mork and Mindy" makes a comeback on TV and the sites compensate for that by giving you bad beats or whatever strikes your fancy.

That's it. The last piece of genuine advice and suggestions you will ever get from me. We are done. This is the last message I will ever write to you.

Use my genuine expert advice however you like.
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:56 PM   #12243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
You know what, I am an expert in terms of your situation, so I will give our whole mess of a chat at each other closure by pretty much giving you the last genuine advice you will likely receive here, much like I tried to do way back at the start.

This is what you should do, even if for a 3 month trial:

1) Drop all this crazy rigged nonsense

I don't care if you are being genuine or making up weird theories at this point ( I have not even read your latest stuff, but I assume it will all help explain in an unprovable way why you lose)

Just drop it for 3 months and put a sign in big bold letters near your computer that says you will be allowed to think it is rigged again in April. You can do it, that's only a few months.

2) Join a coaching site

They are relatively cheap and you can watch all sorts of useful videos that will help you understand why your game is flawed. I watched all of Matt Matros' videos on Stox, and while his approach is not always ideal for the tournaments I am in, they were extremely informative in teaching how one should play a tournament with a short and long term perspective in terms of planning where you want to be at each stage.

You don't even consider concepts like that, you just wonder if you get too many bad beats.

3) Leave this thread and live in the MTT and STT forums (for the games you play) and read all of the threads there as well (I do, though I only post infrequently)

4) Download appropriate software to help you with your game including

Holdem Manager
Table Ninja (or equivalent)
Universal Replayer
Sit and Go Wizard (if doing those)

Drop the whole "I read souls live" belief systems online when playing $5 online tournaments. You know who says that at the tables? This guy.

http://www.pokerprolabs.com/KoBucks/pokerstars.aspx

Don't be him. Use software to see if the donks limp every hand for now, read their souls another day.


5) Pick a game type and concentrate at it. MTTs, SnGs, DONs, cash, whatever


Do this for 3 months, and if you are not satisfied, then go back to posting how the sites could be using micro nano technologoy to give you bad beats that are off set by undetectable good beats from other players who wore sweaters while eating chili and that's why you lose.

If you do 1-5 above, and I mean seriously do it including giving up riggedology cold turkey for 3 months, and if after you still think it is rigged, then seriously no problem at least you tried. Go nuts then posting what if "Mork and Mindy" makes a comeback on TV and the sites compensate for that by giving you bad beats or whatever strikes your fancy.

That's it. The last piece of genuine advice and suggestions you will ever get from me. We are done. This is the last message I will ever write to you.

Use my genuine expert advice however you like.
You know what Monteroy, this is the most constructive and well put together post I have ever seen from you. For that, I am going to do exactly what your action plan lays out. I am going to try this because I have nothing to lose. I love the game of poker and really enjoy the fact that you can play from home.

I will check back in three months to let you guys know how it went. Any posts I make tonight dont count on this though...lol, gotta get a few more in before my 3 month silence...

Thanks again for being constructive,
Joe
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:00 AM   #12244
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
You know what Monteroy, this is the most constructive and well put together post I have ever seen from you. For that, I am going to do exactly what your action plan lays out. I am going to try this because I have nothing to lose. I love the game of poker and really enjoy the fact that you can play from home.

I will check back in three months to let you guys know how it went. Any posts I make tonight dont count on this though...lol, gotta get a few more in before my 3 month silence...

Thanks again for being constructive,
Joe
Good luck Donko! I mean that. Although in fairness to Monteroy, he's posted tons of constructive stuff like this.

Great post Monteroy, I hope others take note!
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:11 AM   #12245
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
You know what, I am an expert in terms of your situation, so I will give our whole mess of a chat at each other closure by pretty much giving you the last genuine advice you will likely receive here, much like I tried to do way back at the start.

This is what you should do, even if for a 3 month trial:

1) Drop all this crazy rigged nonsense

I don't care if you are being genuine or making up weird theories at this point ( I have not even read your latest stuff, but I assume it will all help explain in an unprovable way why you lose)

Just drop it for 3 months and put a sign in big bold letters near your computer that says you will be allowed to think it is rigged again in April. You can do it, that's only a few months.

2) Join a coaching site

They are relatively cheap and you can watch all sorts of useful videos that will help you understand why your game is flawed. I watched all of Matt Matros' videos on Stox, and while his approach is not always ideal for the tournaments I am in, they were extremely informative in teaching how one should play a tournament with a short and long term perspective in terms of planning where you want to be at each stage.

You don't even consider concepts like that, you just wonder if you get too many bad beats.

3) Leave this thread and live in the MTT and STT forums (for the games you play) and read all of the threads there as well (I do, though I only post infrequently)

4) Download appropriate software to help you with your game including

Holdem Manager
Table Ninja (or equivalent)
Universal Replayer
Sit and Go Wizard (if doing those)

Drop the whole "I read souls live" belief systems online when playing $5 online tournaments. You know who says that at the tables? This guy.

http://www.pokerprolabs.com/KoBucks/pokerstars.aspx

Don't be him. Use software to see if the donks limp every hand for now, read their souls another day.


5) Pick a game type and concentrate at it. MTTs, SnGs, DONs, cash, whatever


Do this for 3 months, and if you are not satisfied, then go back to posting how the sites could be using micro nano technologoy to give you bad beats that are off set by undetectable good beats from other players who wore sweaters while eating chili and that's why you lose.

If you do 1-5 above, and I mean seriously do it including giving up riggedology cold turkey for 3 months, and if after you still think it is rigged, then seriously no problem at least you tried. Go nuts then posting what if "Mork and Mindy" makes a comeback on TV and the sites compensate for that by giving you bad beats or whatever strikes your fancy.

That's it. The last piece of genuine advice and suggestions you will ever get from me. We are done. This is the last message I will ever write to you.

Use my genuine expert advice however you like.
Just cut and pasted this into a document and saved it on my desktop. I am not kidding, I am just going to give it a try.
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:18 AM   #12246
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Good luck Donko! I mean that. Although in fairness to Monteroy, he's posted tons of constructive stuff like this.

Great post Monteroy, I hope others take note!
I am sure that he has posted good advice, I just couldnt find it in between the other stuff that usually dominates his posts.

This post was almost completely void of the sarcasm and downward trajectary. That woke me up like ***** slap to the face. LOL!
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:41 AM   #12247
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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I'm taking this thread off my subscribe list and not looking at it for a while. I think it's starting to reduce my intelligence. I'll have some more useful hand stats published in a couple weeks.

Have fun.
Dude, seriously, you are not the only intelligent person here. I have scored as hi as a 149 on an IQ test. So yes, I am a severe under acheiver. And yes, I say some stupid things. That is just how I operate, I get in and make mistakes and try to learn from them. Just dont let stupid stuff I or anyone else has said stop you from you posting here. You are appreciated and needed in these threads.
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Old 01-18-2010, 04:50 AM   #12248
sirswish6
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Dude, seriously, you are not the only intelligent person here. I have scored as hi as a 149 on an IQ test. So yes, I am a severe under acheiver. And yes, I say some stupid things. That is just how I operate, I get in and make mistakes and try to learn from them. Just dont let stupid stuff I or anyone else has said stop you from you posting here. You are appreciated and needed in these threads.

ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-NINE YA'LL!
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:21 AM   #12249
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I am starting to wonder if you are a shill.
Oh, dear.

Donko, you appear to be embracing the dark side.

Now that you have started accusations of shillary the prognosis is not good.

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I am not sure if you are a shill or not, probably not, but the way you guys jump in here so quickly and violently to defend online poker is just another red flag.
You are again aligning yourself very strongly with the rigtards.

I'm sure they think they are being very clever with their talk of people 'jumping in', 'defending passionately', and their questions of why people are so afraid to discuss the matter.

But it's all ******ed nonsense, of course.

If you posted that the capital of France was Lyons, or that water was composed of hydrogen and nitrogen, you would have people responding in exactly the same manner.

On the Internet people do not just sit around and allow people to talk nonsense or assert random theories as fact.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:23 AM   #12250
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
You know what Monteroy, this is the most constructive and well put together post I have ever seen from you. For that, I am going to do exactly what your action plan lays out. I am going to try this because I have nothing to lose. I love the game of poker and really enjoy the fact that you can play from home.

I will check back in three months to let you guys know how it went. Any posts I make tonight dont count on this though...lol, gotta get a few more in before my 3 month silence...
Good luck.

I'm sure that if you put as much effort into thinking about your game as you do posting here you will certainly improve in three months.
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