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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:42 AM   #12051
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
... but some people are so set and "agenda like" about online poker being all holy and pure...
There he goes again.

tk1133, please provide a link to a post where someone has said "online poker is all holy and pure".

Quote:
It should be our duty as poker players to question their integrity until they earned the right to accept our bets....
And, hey, guess what?

That's exactly what happens. There are plenty of people doing just that be examining the stats and, on occasion, they have found Evidence and once it was checked the poker community came down on the miscreants like a ton of bricks.

Contrast this with the persistent whining that you and the other 'tards seem to think is in some way beneficial.

Quote:
"If it's not broke, don't fix it....well something is broke..."
Yup, and it's inside your head.
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:44 AM   #12052
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Would anybody like to discuss the KGC and their control over all US based poker sites accept for 2?
Which US based poker sites would these be?
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:49 AM   #12053
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Which US based poker sites would these be?
Bodog, Carbon, Fulltilt poker, Absolute poker, UB, all KGC.

Cake, and Pokerstars are not KGC.

It's been proven that cheating/manipulating can be done and can be done w/ out prosecution or sanctions.
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:51 AM   #12054
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Bodog, Carbon, Fulltilt poker, Absolute poker, UB, all KGC.

Cake, and Pokerstars are not KGC.
Whereabouts in the US are these sites based?
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:55 AM   #12055
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Whereabouts in the US are these sites based?
You know what I meant...US oriented, Accepts US players...Glad to see your operational 24/7 tho....How much do you get paid?
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:57 AM   #12056
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Well, when we're dealing w/ the reality of the situation, we have to have a skeptical outlook at the legitamacy of online poker. It has been corrupted before and will be again. I just don't understand your guys thinking on this....It's way too easy to manipulate and you guys act like the Vatican put a stamp of approval on it.

I can understand and appreciate the "proof" arguements, but some people are so set and "agenda like" about online poker being all holy and pure. It should be our duty as poker players to question their integrity until they earned the right to accept our bets....

"If it's not broke, don't fix it....well something is broke..."

How about this - fix it where it is broke.

Collusion, bots, fraud, small sites that appear and vanish.


These are actual issues that take place every day in this industry. Serious issues that cost a lot of people a lot of money. You can see various threads which demonstrate this whether it be the following:

- Sites that take the money and run (poker and casino - just look at casinomeister's rogue list for a start)

- Posters who come here claiming they have been robbed when in the end they were the one's who were committing some type of fraud/chip dumping scheme

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/10...forums-549322/

for instance as well.


The paranoia about "is the RnG rigged" from micro players who are looking for an explanation of their losing ways distracts from the real issues in this industry like the above.

As I have said before, give me an RSA Token instead of spending a ton of time trying to convince a riggedologist the games are not rigged against them on a Sunday or whatever their beliefs may be.

Give me a security department that will actively investigate collusion and fraud on the site before you give me a team that investigates whether big stacks hit more flush draws in freerolls.


Anyone who thinks this industry is holy or pure is silly, and good luck showing me a single poster who has those actual beliefs.

Many people including myself question the riggedolost's priorities when it comes to identifying the proper issues to warrant attention.


This guy who proudly states he will bet his next 2000 hands will prove his beliefs. You think he will ever be back? Lots of takers to his bet if he does, so we will never see him again.

How about we concentrate on things that matter. However, in this thread the more superbots, Lizard People, and bold prop bets from vanishing riggedologists the better.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:01 AM   #12057
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
You know what I meant...US oriented, Accepts US players.
In other words, when you say: "US based sites" you mean 'non US based sites.'.

It's all very well to spout nonsense and then just say: "You know what I mean".

If you don't say what you mean then the only person who can know what you intended is you.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:29 AM   #12058
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Re: Is there an organisation that checks poker sites?

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OK, I see where your going with this. That comment deserves an answer. The UIGEA is expected to be relinquished. Before that could be done, since these operators don't operate inside the USA, we can't come out and endorse or allow somthing we don't know anything about. That's why first, poker as a whole was, evaluated. Poker is now proven to be a game of skill. Let's not confuse that with online poker...I'll leave it there...
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:44 AM   #12059
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Well, when we're dealing w/ the reality of the situation, we have to have a skeptical outlook at the legitamacy of online poker. It has been corrupted before and will be again. I just don't understand your guys thinking on this....It's way too easy to manipulate and you guys act like the Vatican put a stamp of approval on it.

I can understand and appreciate the "proof" arguements, but some people are so set and "agenda like" about online poker being all holy and pure. It should be our duty as poker players to question their integrity until they earned the right to accept our bets....

"If it's not broke, don't fix it....well something is broke..."
To me it's extremely simple. I have yet to see *anything* that suggests to me that the games are not legit when it comes to fairness/randomness of the deal.

No one who have claimed that something odd is going on have been able to back up their claim with verifiable data, while all such data that has been presented has come out to look completely legit.

In other words: when looked at closely, NOTHING APPEARS TO BE BROKE HERE. Move along.

It's just funny when someone says something like "an Ace flops WAY more often than it should, I know it because I've seen it!!!!" when Spade has a database of billions of hand that prove the contrary (aces flopping less often than other cards, and correctly so due to card removal effects). Statistical analysis > Human observations.

That said, it certainly *could* be rigged in some way. But if it is rigged, it definitely is so subtle that it falls within what can be explained by regular variance.

I.e. if you're all-in against the fish with a 67/33 favorite hand, you're actually only a 68.9% favorite (or something like that depending on what rigging theory you subscribe to). In other words although it'd technically be true that the games are rigged, that's not the reason you lost that hand (or the last x consecutive or whatever), making your argument laughable regardless of whether you are actually correct about rigging or not.

When someone actually presents a reasonable theory as to how the games are rigged, AND provides some actual data to support the claim, I'll be among the first to want to look into it.

I'm all for a healthy dose of scepticism. But paranoia? Not so much.

Does that sound fair enough to you?
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:46 AM   #12060
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Originally Posted by tk1133
Let me say this to start with. I have NO proof that ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED. I don't believe every site that is available to play poker on is CHEATING. At the same time, I don't have proof that it's not rigged. Things do appear odd sometimes I will admit that makes me speculate things could be rigged. At the same time, things happen that make me speculate that it is realistic and my hands hold up like they should. I admit that I have made posts supporting that online poker is rigged, with out any plausible evidence. I could not go to court and win a case that proves online poker is rigged. However I do have speculation. The difference here is, I'm not trying to start a new site. I will not profit off speculation. I like any other player, want to be comforted in knowing that Op is 100% legit. People may come on here after taking a bad beat and take it out on 2+2 saying it's rigged. But beats happen live and you can't blame the live house game b/c you KNOW it wasn't rigged it was bad luck. But some people really want to know/be comforted. After billions in dollars in revenue we, as customers, deserve to know.
This whole thing could be a misunderstanding. Maybe there are players that know things we, and security doesn't. Maybe the players are the riggers. Maybe the software developers developed glitches and manipulates the security w/ out detection. Therefore we THINK the site is rigged. Well either way its bad press. My point is this: Why when somebody questions the integrity of the game...get verbally bashed and banned? Sometimes insulted by the moderators themselves. I personally thought this site was to express our views and opinions about online poker? Anybody that questions online poker gets banned and restricted what we see. Why are they insulted and banned instead of guided? Some of you obv work for the sites and know that sites arent rigged and are legit. This is your oppertunity to answer a question that many of us are asking. I'm not accusing or pointing fingers. I have no affiliation with any online poker site. Is this site for us or for you?

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Old 01-15-2010, 10:49 AM   #12061
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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To me it's extremely simple. I have yet to see *anything* that suggests to me that the games are not legit when it comes to fairness/randomness of the deal.

No one who have claimed that something odd is going on have been able to back up their claim with verifiable data, while all such data that has been presented has come out to look completely legit.

In other words: when looked at closely, NOTHING APPEARS TO BE BROKE HERE. Move along.

It's just funny when someone says something like "an Ace flops WAY more often than it should, I know it because I've seen it!!!!" when Spade has a database of billions of hand that prove the contrary (aces flopping less often than other cards, and correctly so due to card removal effects). Statistical analysis > Human observations.

That said, it certainly *could* be rigged in some way. But if it is rigged, it definitely is so subtle that it falls within what can be explained by regular variance.

I.e. if you're all-in against the fish with a 67/33 favorite hand, you're actually only a 68.9% favorite (or something like that depending on what rigging theory you subscribe to). In other words although it'd technically be true that the games are rigged, that's not the reason you lost that hand (or the last x consecutive or whatever), making your argument laughable regardless of whether you are actually correct about rigging or not.

When someone actually presents a reasonable theory as to how the games are rigged, AND provides some actual data to support the claim, I'll be among the first to want to look into it.

I'm all for a healthy dose of scepticism. But paranoia? Not so much.

Does that sound fair enough to you?
Fair, but if we have that attitude and we as players, are supposed to police "ourselves" then we are more vunerable to fraud....
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:13 PM   #12062
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Let's say "small" is 2-7, and "big" is 9-A. 24 cards each, and 8s don't count.

So both sets have 24/52 or 46% chance to be dealt. In 2000 hands or 4000 dealt cards, you should receive 1846 cards in each group (disregarding 8s, the median card). For a 99.99% confidence level we use 4 standard deviations, which in this case is +/- 126.

So I'll take your bet, that your next 2000 hands result in you receiving between 1720 and 1972 of each group, small cards and big cards. Or in your terms, that you recieve at least 1720 big cards 9+, in the next 2000 hands.

Choose a mod for escrow, you put in $100 and I put in $50. Then you zip up the 2000 hand histories with consecutive times, starting tomorrow, and post the link to them. The hand history files need the original file timestamp on them to show they are not edited.

If I've made a math error we'll agree on the correction.
With:
a = small cards
b = eights
c = big cards
My actual count over the last five days is: 2189/379/2070 (a/b/c)

My bet is that a>c over the next 2000+ hands, which I expect will take about five days from when I start. I usually play only one table, sometimes two, mostly sngs or 180-player tournaments.

It should be a breakeven bet, a coinflip, but that hasn't been my experience for a while.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:26 PM   #12063
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by TwoMoos View Post
It should be a breakeven bet, a coinflip, but that hasn't been my experience for a while.

The result should fall in the ranges I gave you, 99.99% of the time. A random variable follows a normal distribution, which does NOT mean that it is exactly on expectation for small samples. The samples should look like a bell curve.

There is absolutely no expectation you should get as many small cards as big cards in 2000 hands, unless you enclose that in a probability envelope of +/- some confidence interval. I suggested 4 SD. I'd even take your bet for 3SD. But saying the number will actually be greater is no more than flipping a coin for your money.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:29 PM   #12064
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by TwoMoos View Post
With:
a = small cards
b = eights
c = big cards
My actual count over the last five days is: 2189/379/2070 (a/b/c)

My bet is that a>c over the next 2000+ hands, which I expect will take about five days from when I start. I usually play only one table, sometimes two, mostly sngs or 180-player tournaments.

It should be a breakeven bet, a coinflip, but that hasn't been my experience for a while.

But your bet will not prove anything at all whether you win or lose, so what is the point.

If you believe it is rigged against you, go to Walmart and purchase some testicles, and put your money where your mouth is and back your beliefs by doing the bet spade suggests, because if you win that you will have a lot more power behind your beliefs (even if it was fluke luck/unluck that caused the win).

As is, you are saying that you think tails happens a lot and a single flip of tails will mean something. Yawn.

Ask spade and he probably will let you have a 3 SD range as well at even money.

Edit: Woo, I could anticipate spade's stats betting move to 3 SD! I knew I had a good read on him.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:31 PM   #12065
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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But your bet will not prove anything at all whether you win or lose, so what is the point.

If you believe it is rigged against you, go to Walmart and purchase some testicles, and put your money where your mouth is and back your beliefs by doing the bet spade suggests, because if you win that you will have a lot more power behind your beliefs (even if it was fluke luck/unluck that caused the win).

As is, you are saying that you think tails happens a lot and a single flip of tails will mean something. Yawn.

Ask him spade and he probably will let you have a 3 SD range as well at even money.
I will advise after he purchases a testicle, or a pair depending on his bankroll, to wrap them in tin foil before installing....
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:37 PM   #12066
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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The result should fall in the ranges I gave you, 99.99% of the time. A random variable follows a normal distribution, which does NOT mean that it is exactly on expectation for small samples. The samples should look like a bell curve.

There is absolutely no expectation you should get as many small cards as big cards in 2000 hands, unless you enclose that in a probability envelope of +/- some confidence interval. I suggested 4 SD. I'd even take your bet for 3SD. But saying the number will actually be greater is no more than flipping a coin for your money.
I'm relying on your figures about SD and have no disagreement. My recent experience is about 2SD below breakeven if I understand you correctly. I'm proposing a bet laying $100 to $50 that my next 2000+ hands or so, a similar sized sample, will be below breakeven. It might be below a lot or a little, but if a>c, I win the bet. If a<c, I lose. Because it should be breakeven, by laying 2-1, I'm giving you the best of it. I wouldn't mind losing this bet all that much because that would mean my cards are better than breakeven.

Ties are a push.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:47 PM   #12067
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Fair, but if we have that attitude and we as players, are supposed to police "ourselves" then we are more vunerable to fraud....
Complete and utter rubbish.

(Why would I expect anything else from tk1133? )

For the most part we are the ones who are in an ideal position to ensure we are not cheated - particularly within the context of this thread - since we are the ones with the greatest interest to check.

Expecting governments to do everything to take care of us is having a 'victim mentality' and is the preserve of communists and their fellow travelers.

(And you know how far the communists got )
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:54 PM   #12068
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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bump from page #97
Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Bump from page #51
Quoting rubbish you have already posted doesn't stop it being rubbish.

And how about learning the difference between a bump and a quote? You've been here long enough and your inability to pick up simple terminological differences does noting to enhance your credibility.

Not that you really had any to enhance in the first place.
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:57 PM   #12069
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I'm relying on your figures about SD and have no disagreement. My recent experience is about 2SD below breakeven if I understand you correctly. I'm proposing a bet laying $100 to $50 that my next 2000+ hands or so, a similar sized sample, will be below breakeven. It might be below a lot or a little, but if a>c, I win the bet. If a<c, I lose. Because it should be breakeven, by laying 2-1, I'm giving you the best of it. I wouldn't mind losing this bet all that much because that would mean my cards are better than breakeven.

Ties are a push.

Yes, it is still a stupid bet with you offering 2-1 on a coin flip, but that is all it is, you offering a degen bet based on emotions, much like how Hellmuth kept spewing getting "insurance" against bad beats from Ivey on that one telecast.

Ivey just smiled and laughed because he knew it was a silly bet.

Sure, I would go for this purely based on how inane the bet is , but you would not be allowed any control of the data or the money, because frankly I suspect you lie a lot , even to yourself.

This bet as you propose would also not prove a single thing whether you win or lose other than you are a degen who will spew money based on feelings that you know are not based on actual reality. Go to the sportsbook forum and offer 2-1 on any game with the posted spread and they will happily let you pick whatever team you want. Hell, go there with this bet and you will find a ton of insta takers.

If you thought your beliefs were valid, you would take up spade's bets. Those are even money after all, so you win more for the same bet if your beliefs are correct.

How about it? Back your whiny words by doing a bet that will properly show your beliefs. If you want to do your 2-1 on a coin flip bet, go to the sports betting forum and post it and fight off the dozens of people rushing to take action on it. Good luck with that venture.
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:17 PM   #12070
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Yes, it is still a stupid bet with you offering 2-1 on a coin flip, but that is all it is, you offering a degen bet based on emotions, much like how Hellmuth kept spewing getting "insurance" against bad beats from Ivey on that one telecast.

Ivey just smiled and laughed because he knew it was a silly bet.

Sure, I would go for this purely based on how inane the bet is , but you would not be allowed any control of the data or the money, because frankly I suspect you lie a lot , even to yourself.

This bet as you propose would also not prove a single thing whether you win or lose other than you are a degen who will spew money based on feelings that you know are not based on actual reality. Go to the sportsbook forum and offer 2-1 on any game with the posted spread and they will happily let you pick whatever team you want. Hell, go there with this bet and you will find a ton of insta takers.

If you thought your beliefs were valid, you would take up spade's bets. Those are even money after all, so you win more for the same bet if your beliefs are correct.

How about it? Back your whiny words by doing a bet that will properly show your beliefs. If you want to do your 2-1 on a coin flip bet, go to the sports betting forum and post it and fight off the dozens of people rushing to take action on it. Good luck with that venture.
If you don't want the bet, that's fine. And I'm not saying PStars is rigged. I'm just proposing a bet. Whether anybody takes the bet or not, it keeps me motivated to keep records.

Poker is hard. You have to beat your opponent, you have to beat the rake, and if your cards are running well below breakeven, you have to beat that, too.
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:24 PM   #12071
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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And I'm not saying PStars is rigged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoMoos View Post
The dealer ain't square.
Which of these was true?

I'm really not interested in a pointless coin flip bet. You proposed a theory and I disagreed. Now you want to make it pissing contest instead.
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:28 PM   #12072
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Now you want to make it pissing contest instead.
Pretty much par for the course for the rigtards.

They can't really lose if they propose any kind of bet because they have no positive reputation to sully even if they are not new posters or gimmick accounts.

On the other hand, if the 'debunker' doesn't want anything to do with their nonsense they can attempt to make out that they are afraid to be proven wrong.

Of course, only other 'tards will buy that view.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:05 PM   #12073
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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If you don't want the bet, that's fine. And I'm not saying PStars is rigged. I'm just proposing a bet. Whether anybody takes the bet or not, it keeps me motivated to keep records.

Poker is hard. You have to beat your opponent, you have to beat the rake, and if your cards are running well below breakeven, you have to beat that, too.
Are you dense? Your bet doesn't reflect anything now. You came in here and made claims that you thought you could back up and now you are wanting some sort of degen bet where it's basically a coin flip and can easily be explained by simple variance.

If you want to gamble go play some blackjack.

PS. Keep in mind though that if you can't count cards then Blackjack is rigged against you.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:26 PM   #12074
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Complete and utter rubbish.

(Why would I expect anything else from tk1133? )

For the most part we are the ones who are in an ideal position to ensure we are not cheated - particularly within the context of this thread - since we are the ones with the greatest interest to check.

Expecting governments to do everything to take care of us is having a 'victim mentality' and is the preserve of communists and their fellow travelers.

(And you know how far the communists got )
So another Country should over see my Countries financial securities?
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:53 PM   #12075
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
Are you dense? Your bet doesn't reflect anything now. You came in here and made claims that you thought you could back up and now you are wanting some sort of degen bet where it's basically a coin flip and can easily be explained by simple variance.

If you want to gamble go play some blackjack.

PS. Keep in mind though that if you can't count cards then Blackjack is rigged against you.
Obviously, you don't want the bet even though you obviously have the best of it. I'm not upset to have the bet turned down.

In the meantime, if nobody wants to PM me and actually take the bet, it's just a "called shot." I'm playing today and will probably be playing Saturday, Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. I'll be back on no later than Wednesday, and if my "called shot" doesn't hit, I won't mind admitting it. If it does hit, I'll be happy to send you proof and renew the offer.
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