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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:11 PM   #11851
DonkoTheClown
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by otatop View Post
But how could he possibly do that? There's no software that could possibly do it, especially not with a built in report on standard deviations. Let him keep HEM and hawing until some genius unleashes that type of software on the world, perhaps even with a 15 day trial.

I did get the 15 day trial and imported the hands in, my machine didnt like it and crashed. It is obviously not the program, something is wrong with my computer. The card distribution report should be easy to run. I'll post it as soon as I have the numbers and if you guys want to throw eggs at me afterwards for being wrong, I wont duck, I will just close my eyes and take the punishment.
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:21 PM   #11852
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I know you probably just posted this really quickly but this isn't the case right? Suited cards happen less often than offsuit and pairs less often than non-pairs.
Thanks for the correction, yes I just posted quickly. Pairs are (6/1326)*N each. Suited hands are (4/1326)*N. And offsuit hands are (12/1326)*N.

The SD for each one is sqrt(npq) where n=total sample, p= the probability mentioned above, and q = 1-p.
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Old 01-11-2010, 11:03 PM   #11853
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I did get the 15 day trial and imported the hands in, my machine didnt like it and crashed. It is obviously not the program, something is wrong with my computer. The card distribution report should be easy to run. I'll post it as soon as I have the numbers and if you guys want to throw eggs at me afterwards for being wrong, I wont duck, I will just close my eyes and take the punishment.
If you actually come back here and post screenshots or something and say "Yeah, so I was wrong and the things I 'saw' weren't really there" I don't think you'll get harassed too much.

I also don't really think you'll do that. You'll say that you were right because you were .04 SDs off, or because your sample isn't big enough to disprove whatever theory you want to come up with to dodge the math, or something like that.
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Old 01-12-2010, 12:38 AM   #11854
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

As one of the worlds foremost conspiracy theorists, I feel my $.02 is needed, especially if there's 800 pages of text to cover it up eternally.

My stance has always been that it is rigged, but not against you. People who complain that pokerstars or any other site is out to get them need a gun and a cold shower to keep them occupied. They forget (as do I) that they have been spoon fed hands in the past and never once did they complain. In fact, they probably stood up, pumped their fist, and thought "damn...I'm good." Again, I know this from experience.

I however do believe in the cycle theory. Particularly on Sundays. I've lost more money on Sundays by a long shot than any other day. I largely think that lesser players are rewarded for poor moves to think that it's a lot easier to win money than it really truly is. If you're caught up in the mix with them, then TOO BAD.

I say all of this after another nightmare session yesterday. I knew things were bad during the Sunday warm up when I was at a table where the loosest player got called all in. He held aces, the caller held AK. flop is 2,6,J. Turn K, river K. I felt sick for the kid, but I'd have my own problems. I don't need to rail on another bad beat story, most of them were your standard Ax losing to Ax lower kicker. The only one I'm still steamed about is my pocket 2's being called all in on a flop of 2,7,K rainbow by K10, with runner runner 10's to give him the boat.

Why do I keep playing? Because I make money doing this. I paid off a nightmare credit card bill, and a year of college tuition. As much as I hate the sickening abuse i know we've all felt, I just can't find a good argument against profit. ...Except maybe greater profit. That sounds good.
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Old 01-12-2010, 01:19 AM   #11855
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Interesting that you think that people who believe it is rigged against them specifically are somewhat insane.

Sorry that you think it is rigged against you on Sundays. Play badly on Sundays in future and be rewarded if that is how to break the cycle. Let us know how that goes, and it should go well, since you are powerful enough to fake being a lesser player to win instead of doing what you are doing now - losing.

Thanks as well for the bad beat stories as they were truly inspiring and original.

Be happy - Sunday is not for several days.
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:06 AM   #11856
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Why do I keep playing?
Instead, maybe you should ask yourself why you keep playing on Sundays.
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:46 AM   #11857
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Biggle10 View Post
Couldn't you take those 100,000 hands and figure out how many standard deviations you are away from the norm? That would be a start, yes?
This would be a good start, but if I need to sort by scenarios like, all in for my tournament life the first time in the tournament, as the heavy favorite deep in the tournament, I am sure that there isnt going to be enough of a sample size because 100,000 hands probably becomes around 100-200 if I am just looking at that scenario. I would be looking at that scenario to see how I run in those situations because busting there has the biggest effect on my win rate because to have a chance at a final table where most of the money is, you do need to win some of these very critical hands. I feel like I have lost a lot more in this area than I should have. In this sample size, it is still easy to say "Variance".
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:47 AM   #11858
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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You've really spoiled that for me.

I was having so much fun imagining some loser who'd already sheared a ship going back and trying to do it again.

What an idiot!

What was he thinking?
You have showed me how closed minded you are to really believe I meant to type ship and not sheep.

You have also made no solid arguments to how you know cheating does not take place in online poker. Cheating goes on plenty in underground card rooms and home games. I feel sorry for you that you are still unable to see it goes on online as well.
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:55 AM   #11859
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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You have showed me how closed minded you are to really believe I meant to type ship and not sheep.
You have showed us how humourless you are by thinking that anyone cared what you meant to type, and being unable to find the humour in the situation.

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Originally Posted by PokerProLv View Post
You have also made no solid arguments to how you know cheating does not take place in online poker. Cheating goes on plenty in underground card rooms and home games. I feel sorry for you that you are still unable to see it goes on online as well.
I feel sorry for you that you are still unable to see that no one denies it happens online as well.
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:04 AM   #11860
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
You have showed us how humourless you are by thinking that anyone cared what you meant to type, and being unable to find the humour in the situation.


I feel sorry for you that you are still unable to see that no one denies it happens online as well.
I feel sorry that you are on this thread not to debate the issue, but just to make personal attacks and jokes. Even if you could prove online poker is not rigged at certain sites, to think someone out there is not trying to cheat gamblers online means your just uninformed or still in the closet.
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:12 AM   #11861
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokerProLv View Post
I feel sorry that you are on this thread not to debate the issue, but just to make personal attacks and jokes. Even if you could prove online poker is not rigged at certain sites, to think someone out there is not trying to cheat gamblers online means your just uninformed or still in the closet.
It's nice to know you can judge me from my last few posts. I've made lots of posts ITT debating the issue.

You should really try reading more carefully. Once again, no one is claiming that there aren't people cheating.

NO

ONE

Last edited by Bobo Fett; 01-12-2010 at 03:14 AM. Reason: And you're really going to call me out for making personal attacks for calling you humorless? Seriously?? LOL.
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:14 AM   #11862
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokerProLv View Post
I feel sorry that you are on this thread not to debate the issue, but just to make personal attacks and jokes. Even if you could prove online poker is not rigged at certain sites, to think someone out there is not trying to cheat gamblers online means your just uninformed or still in the closet.
I'm going to say this just once for you, so please read carefully.

No one is denying that cheating happens in online poker. People collude, some people build bots. No one in this thread has denied that. But out of the billions of hands that have been analyzed there has not been one shred of evidence pointing to a rigged deal. Not one. So basically your case is about as strong as me calling you a rapist. It could be true, but there is absolutely no evidence that it is. So for now, I will believe that you are not a rapist. Do you understand?

Now, if you could come back with some actual evidence of a rigged deal then maybe people would take you seriously. But until then, you are just spouting paranoia, and people who go through life with this degree of paranoia is what I actually do feel sorry for.
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:29 AM   #11863
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

As long as we're handing out condolences, I feel sorry for the two guys who used the phrase "You have showed us".
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:37 AM   #11864
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I think Modern Warfare 2 is rigged! I emptied an entire clip into this one guy tonight and he still ran up and knifed me!

Has someone come up with a simple, effective way to show the deal is legit? It seems like something that surely SOMEONE on this planet has figured out, so where is it? I've done my own analysis on my hole card distributions and those hit the numbers very reliably for PS, FTP, and Bodog. For those who are interested, Zynga poker does not have a random deal for hole cards. Way too many A's, not enough 8's.

I don't see too many people complaining anyway about hole cards (except in tourneys). The community cards are the bigger issue and their relationship to the hole cards of the people remaining in the hand. Seems like some math whiz should have found a simple way to analyze these situations. I'm begging that that someone to come forward. I don't need analysis of 10 million hands, but it would be nice to have some type of formula that I could run my own hands through to verify I'm playing in a legit game.

I'd even pay money for it!
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:37 AM   #11865
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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As long as we're handing out condolences, I feel sorry for the two guys who used the phrase "You have showed us".
Really? Because I think I'm the only one who used it, which I did while mimicking PokerProLv's post. I'm really not feeling as if I need your pity because of it though, professor. Thanks anyway just the same.
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:41 AM   #11866
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
I'm going to say this just once for you, so please read carefully.

No one is denying that cheating happens in online poker. People collude, some people build bots. No one in this thread has denied that. But out of the billions of hands that have been analyzed there has not been one shred of evidence pointing to a rigged deal. Not one. So basically your case is about as strong as me calling you a rapist. It could be true, but there is absolutely no evidence that it is. So for now, I will believe that you are not a rapist. Do you understand?

Now, if you could come back with some actual evidence of a rigged deal then maybe people would take you seriously. But until then, you are just spouting paranoia, and people who go through life with this degree of paranoia is what I actually do feel sorry for.
Im gonna break this big word down for you so you can understand what your saying before you say it.

Rigged - to manipulate fraudulently: example. to rig prices.


Heres your evidence because you are not understanding that this was not only an example of cheating, but rigging as well. Surely you already know of this example, but its so clear that this player would make for a RIGGED game.

There was a superuser account on Absolute Poker and that user was able to see everyone's hole cards, and they used that information to win at the tables.

This even made the N.Y.Times. Versions of the story also appeared at MSNBC and ABC News.

And as far as hand analysis goes. I don't give a crap. There is no reason if I owned a site, that I couldnt make new accounts on a regular basis and skim people with view of their hole cards.


And don't assume I am a paranoid person because I think online poker is rigged. Its already been proven it has been in the past. I also believe baseball players do steroids. Doesnt mean they all do. So stop trying to talk down to people who understand that if it happened once it will probally happen again.
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Old 01-12-2010, 03:52 AM   #11867
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokerProLv View Post
Im gonna break this big word down for you so you can understand what your saying before you say it.

Rigged - to manipulate fraudulently: example. to rig prices.


Heres your evidence because you are not understanding that this was not only an example of cheating, but rigging as well. Surely you already know of this example, but its so clear that this player would make for a RIGGED game.

There was a superuser account on Absolute Poker and that user was able to see everyone's hole cards, and they used that information to win at the tables.

This even made the N.Y.Times. Versions of the story also appeared at MSNBC and ABC News.

And as far as hand analysis goes. I don't give a crap. There is no reason if I owned a site, that I couldnt make new accounts on a regular basis and skim people with view of their hole cards.


And don't assume I am a paranoid person because I think online poker is rigged. Its already been proven it has been in the past. I also believe baseball players do steroids. Doesnt mean they all do. So stop trying to talk down to people who understand that if it happened once it will probally happen again.
If you had read any of the thread you would notice that the majority of "rigged" claims are players complaining that they are getting bad beat. This is in regards to the RNG.

The AP/UB scandal was uncovered by hand analysis. So why don't you bring some analysis of a room that you feel is rigged and present it in the thread instead of just throwing random allegations around.

Enron was an energy company that committed fraud, but I'm not going to claim other energy companies are committing fraud without a single shred of evidence.

Understand?
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Old 01-12-2010, 04:24 AM   #11868
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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If you had read any of the thread you would notice that the majority of "rigged" claims are players complaining that they are getting bad beat. This is in regards to the RNG.

The AP/UB scandal was uncovered by hand analysis. So why don't you bring some analysis of a room that you feel is rigged and present it in the thread instead of just throwing random allegations around.

Enron was an energy company that committed fraud, but I'm not going to claim other energy companies are committing fraud without a single shred of evidence.

Understand?
I do understand. I also agree that the majority of rigged claims are players who see patterns of flops and hole cards and bad days of the week etc, and patterns are just normal to be created.

I also understand probability and economics. And anyone who has a degree in those 2 fields, without being 100% oblivious, knows that they're other companies that are 99.9% commiting fraud. Once again, this doesnt mean they all are, but economics wise its almost certain some are.

And theres not always evidence. If I played you heads up and cheated in you in a home game with highly advanced patterned cards, you would never know. You would also have no evidence.

When you fit probability into economics you start to see real life scenarios. And its not about, "that I shouldnt claim something just because I have no proof." Its about economics, probability, and logic to know that just because you cant prove its going on, doesnt mean it probally isnt. And for me its very easy to know its more likely that rigging of poker goes on online just as it would in person.

Its all about incentives and consequences. Bottom line, there is far too much incentive of money to be made with nearly no consequences for it not to be going on.

Its no different from a major poker site that I worked for that closed in the mid 2000's that stole thousands of dollars from my fellow poker players.

Its also no different from my friend who lost tens of thousands of dollars when David Carruthers got arrested in the US and BOS poker was shut down.

Atleast take from my own advice and don't ever leave more on a poker site than you are more than willing to lose. A big site could shut down tomorrow and if they don't want to give your money to you, there is not much you can do about it.
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:11 AM   #11869
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Been there, been said.

Next..


(Sorry, but there are way too many holes in your statement to reply to individually. Someone else might try)
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Old 01-12-2010, 08:21 AM   #11870
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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And anyone who has a degree in those 2 fields, without being 100% oblivious, knows that they're other companies that are 99.9% commiting fraud.
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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
(Sorry, but there are way too many holes in your statement to reply to individually. Someone else might try)
Not much point trying to argue with gibberish like that quoted (PokerProLv) above.

PokerProLv seems to belong to the 'They must be defrauding people because they can' school of thought.

This is a common logical fallacy amongst the criminal fraternity or those with a dishonest nature because they genuinely cannot understand how anyone who has an opportunity to cheat won't take it.

Sad, really.
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:25 AM   #11871
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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And theres not always evidence. If I played you heads up and cheated in you in a home game with highly advanced patterned cards, you would never know. You would also have no evidence.
This is not a good example of a scheme with no evidence, DUCY?
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:30 AM   #11872
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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This is not a good example of a scheme with no evidence, DUCY?
Sadly, you are hoping for a higher level of analytical ability than is likely to be present.
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:38 AM   #11873
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Not much point trying to argue with gibberish like that quoted (PokerProLv) above.

PokerProLv seems to belong to the 'They must be defrauding people because they can' school of thought.

This is a common logical fallacy amongst the criminal fraternity or those with a dishonest nature because they genuinely cannot understand how anyone who has an opportunity to cheat won't take it.

Sad, really.
Sad is your lack of education in how things really work.
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:50 AM   #11874
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Sad is your lack of education in how things really work.
Hmmm ... right.
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:53 AM   #11875
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

In the past 20 months over 20 poker rooms have gone bust with many players losing all funds. Ive personally been involved with 2 of these sites and worked for 1 of them. You and many others one day will have to learn the hard way.
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