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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 01-10-2010, 04:29 AM   #11776
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I just bust out with a flopped full house against Ace-high donk villain, get all-in. No ace on the board. Turn puts trips on the board. River puts quads on the board. Ace-high is now the nuts. I lose.

Rigged.
Obv.
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Old 01-10-2010, 07:10 AM   #11777
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by quadmaster View Post
I would like to see government based agencies perform an analysis on the poker site's RNG and application code. Not some auditor hired by the poker site. Of course any rigging system would ensure that the overall odds come out to the expected percentages. The poker site would be stupid if their method could be detected by such a simple audit.

An independant audit of the code (not the results) by a trusted government agency is the only way to put this debate to rest.
Isn't that an oxymoron?
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:48 AM   #11778
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
You could have a program that profiles players by skill level and tilt factor. You could use past depositing history and other bits of information like that to put the right squeeze on players to maximize profits out of them. So one player might run deep and win $3 and another might bust out early and go on a depositing frenzy.

When I was in sales, selling music equipment, we could predict a customers purchasing patterns and build custom approaches to getting them back in the store to buy another guitar or amp. There were some really sick people using their credit cards to a point of bankruptcy. I am not proud of that in my past and have left that field even though I was top sales guy most months.

My point is that most of the rigged theories are way too simple and would be figured out by someone with HEM or PT. If something is going on, it is going to be put together by some very smart people, probably smarter than anyone on this thread. Getting someone with that kind of talent to check all of this out for free is never going to happen and that could very well be why it hasnt been figured out.
All of that brings us back to one of the biggest flaws of all of these complex, made up theories, even your rigged based on customer emotional type one, or whatever it is now (pretending you are being genuine).

A complex rigged system would take a lot more effort to manage and tweak, which involves more people in on it, just as you and your buddies were in on it when you financially crippled certain customers.

You are talking about it. I am sure your co-workers told people about it. Yet, for these complex "non turbos are turbos for emotionally fragile tilt customers who have not deposited for 2 weeks" theory, you require all of the people behind this monstrosity at every site that ever used it to never reveal their secret. All this while they never get caught.

If you were a sales guy, you know common sense matters. Use some. You are creating fantasy theories without even showing why they would make the site any more money, you may as well assume they rig it based on whether their players dress in a color coordinated manner, or whether they ever used a Heath Ledger "Joker" icon (well, rigging against those guys I approve of).

All the best.
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:11 PM   #11779
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
All of that brings us back to one of the biggest flaws of all of these complex, made up theories, even your rigged based on customer emotional type one, or whatever it is now (pretending you are being genuine).

A complex rigged system would take a lot more effort to manage and tweak, which involves more people in on it, just as you and your buddies were in on it when you financially crippled certain customers.

You are talking about it. I am sure your co-workers told people about it. Yet, for these complex "non turbos are turbos for emotionally fragile tilt customers who have not deposited for 2 weeks" theory, you require all of the people behind this monstrosity at every site that ever used it to never reveal their secret. All this while they never get caught.

If you were a sales guy, you know common sense matters. Use some. You are creating fantasy theories without even showing why they would make the site any more money, you may as well assume they rig it based on whether their players dress in a color coordinated manner, or whether they ever used a Heath Ledger "Joker" icon (well, rigging against those guys I approve of).

All the best.
Totally agree. But I will say this, I took a salary based job selling high end cars at a huge dealership in my hometown when after my 2nd year of college... (My name got me the job not bragging)I was very close with the owner and GM... Either way we'd have these end of the year promotions.... They send you a key in the mail and if you come into our dealership and it matches our showroom car, you COULD win that car....

Long story short, I know for a FACT, nobody would ever win that car...I left there after 2 years due to the lack of integrity and morals of their business practices. But I could tell you worse things about this franchised based billion dollar business.

I have never told a soul....And to this day I would not....
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:40 PM   #11780
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by quadmaster View Post
I would like to see government based agencies perform an analysis on the poker site's RNG and application code. Not some auditor hired by the poker site. Of course any rigging system would ensure that the overall odds come out to the expected percentages. The poker site would be stupid if their method could be detected by such a simple audit.

An independant audit of the code (not the results) by a trusted government agency is the only way to put this debate to rest.
First of all your point about rigging coming out to expected percentages has been refuted numerous times, as has the whole "look at the code, not the output" point which is relatively useless. But we'll just let that go for now.

You do realize that government agencies in the US aren't responsible for auditing American publicly traded companies right? At most the government has an oversight agency like the SEC which provides some guidance on how the audits are performed, but they don't perform the audits. So if you have a problem with the companies hiring reputable companies/firms to audit them, you should have a problem with the audit model in the US as well. In the case of the SEC, there have been plenty of well documented audit failures anyway. Granted their responsibility goes way beyond looking at a single RNG (I should know, I was an auditor for four years) and I'd argue they have a tougher job and a lot more to look at. But the answers lie in the output. I would already argue that spadebidder has done a more sound job at analyzing the integrity of online poker games than any government agency would.
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:19 PM   #11781
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I have never told a soul....And to this day I would not....
Congratulations for having no conscience or sense of social responsibility.

Fortunately, others have higher personal standards.
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Old 01-10-2010, 02:57 PM   #11782
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Most realistic people, do not judge people when they never walked in that person's shoe's or know a thing about them.

I sincerly believe you suffer from the Kruger/Dunning effect....
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:00 PM   #11783
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I love when people quote a scientific hypothesis they found using google while at the same time misspelling words and misusing commas and apostrophes.
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:00 PM   #11784
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which ""people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it"".[1]

The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average, much higher than actuality; by contrast the highly skilled underrate their abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. This leads to a perverse result where less competent people will rate their own ability higher than more competent people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

It also explains why actual competence may weaken self-confidence because competent individuals falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. "Thus, the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."[1]

“ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ”
— Bertrand Russell[2] "
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:01 PM   #11785
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

wikipedia is fun
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:18 PM   #11786
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which ""people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it"".[1]

The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average, much higher than actuality; by contrast the highly skilled underrate their abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. This leads to a perverse result where less competent people will rate their own ability higher than more competent people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

It also explains why actual competence may weaken self-confidence because competent individuals falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. "Thus, the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."[1]

“ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ”
— Bertrand Russell[2] "
Thanks. Pretty much sums up the reasons for your delsuions regarding your poker ability and resulting rigged theories you make up.
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:27 PM   #11787
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Totally agree. But I will say this, I took a salary based job selling high end cars at a huge dealership in my hometown when after my 2nd year of college... (My name got me the job not bragging)I was very close with the owner and GM... Either way we'd have these end of the year promotions.... They send you a key in the mail and if you come into our dealership and it matches our showroom car, you COULD win that car....

Long story short, I know for a FACT, nobody would ever win that car...I left there after 2 years due to the lack of integrity and morals of their business practices. But I could tell you worse things about this franchised based billion dollar business.

I have never told a soul....And to this day I would not....
You do realize that the above is you essentially telling, so that last line is a bit off unless you are implying that none of us have a soul (which may be the case).

How about this, if this type of crime was being done by Stars, Tilt, ipoker and all the other sites someone behind it with some proven credentials in the industry (ie: not a random anon guy making a false claim) came and said exactly what you said in vague terms about rigging while then declaring they will never tell a soul - even that would be a first step.

We don't even have that yet with regard to rigged software for any of the major sites. Why?

Contrast that to the many times former affiliates or employees at small sites have come here and posted how shoddy an operation it was in terms of finances, some of which was valid and some sour grapes if they got fired.

People tell. All the time. Even you told while saying you would never tell.
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:27 PM   #11788
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Thanks. Pretty much sums up the reasons for your delsuions regarding your poker ability and resulting rigged theories you make up.
Ok, the tally has started, so far we now have 2 people proven probable to be suffering from a negative case of the Kruger-Dunning effect.

Quote:
This leads to a perverse result where less competent people will rate their own ability higher than more competent people.
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:43 PM   #11789
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

LOL this is a new one. A rigtard who thinks he's a scientist and thinks he understands science.

You're a negative case of the Kruger-Dunning effect! Nuh uh, you are! Nawwwwww it's you.

So how can we figure out which person is more intelligent? Well, let me be the first to suggest that making the word "shoes" possessive as "shoe's" doesn't help tk's case. Add to that baseless accusations, the ignoring of reason, xenophobia, etc etc.

Most scientists are articulate when they present their theories. tk is simply looking up the work of intelligent people and acting like there's some sort of integrity in the way in which he develops his views. Humorous I guess...
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Old 01-10-2010, 03:44 PM   #11790
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Ok, the tally has started, so far we now have 2 people proven probable to be suffering from a negative case of the Kruger-Dunning effect.
Proven probable? Can you explain that to me? I wouldn't understand.

Please lay it out in the form of a scientific proof. Look it up if you have to.
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Old 01-10-2010, 04:12 PM   #11791
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Ok, the tally has started, so far we now have 2 people proven probable to be suffering from a negative case of the Kruger-Dunning effect.
I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility... for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could and before you even knew what you had you patented it and packaged it and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now
[pounds table with fists]
you're selling it,
[pounds table again]
you want to sell it!
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Old 01-10-2010, 04:13 PM   #11792
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Proven probable? Can you explain that to me? I wouldn't understand.

Please lay it out in the form of a scientific proof. Look it up if you have to.
I'm not the one that personally attacks other's credibility, or their poker playing abilities based on....nothing...

Your arguement can be made for this entire thread..thanks....
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Old 01-10-2010, 04:15 PM   #11793
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by otatop View Post
I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility... for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could and before you even knew what you had you patented it and packaged it and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now
[pounds table with fists]
you're selling it,
[pounds table again]
you want to sell it!
Again, you assume....makes you no different then a rigtard...
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Old 01-10-2010, 04:22 PM   #11794
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Your arguement can be made for this entire thread..thanks....
...which is kind of the point. Oh no, NFuego asks people making random accusations for proof. What a clear cut case of Jackin-MeHoff syndrome!
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Old 01-10-2010, 06:09 PM   #11795
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Wait... what? How do you view this information?
Email them at support@pokerstars.com
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Old 01-10-2010, 06:11 PM   #11796
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

rigged.
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Old 01-10-2010, 08:22 PM   #11797
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
All of that brings us back to one of the biggest flaws of all of these complex, made up theories, even your rigged based on customer emotional type one, or whatever it is now (pretending you are being genuine).

A complex rigged system would take a lot more effort to manage and tweak, which involves more people in on it, just as you and your buddies were in on it when you financially crippled certain customers.

You are talking about it. I am sure your co-workers told people about it. Yet, for these complex "non turbos are turbos for emotionally fragile tilt customers who have not deposited for 2 weeks" theory, you require all of the people behind this monstrosity at every site that ever used it to never reveal their secret. All this while they never get caught.

If you were a sales guy, you know common sense matters. Use some. You are creating fantasy theories without even showing why they would make the site any more money, you may as well assume they rig it based on whether their players dress in a color coordinated manner, or whether they ever used a Heath Ledger "Joker" icon (well, rigging against those guys I approve of).

All the best.
I agree that this would have to be addressed and dealt with. If there needs to be a lot of people in on "It", and I am not convinced of this, it would need to be a very specific and tech saavy group of individuals. Could there be a group of individuals who do this kind of stuff for a living? I would also say that it would all be in the programming, and would not need constant tweaking because it would be reactive programming based on historicals and real time scenarios.

If we are talking about why they would do this? The answer is greed.

You are right to believe that most likely, there is nothing evil going on at the major sites. Most of me believes this, but part of me continues to proceed with caution based on the circumstantial information I have gathered in my own experiences playing on line and in my discussions with other poker players. I am comfortable enough about the majors to play at lower level, but I am nowhere near willing to play online at the levels I play live. That is my issue though.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:31 PM   #11798
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Oh, I thought it was available in the program somewhere. Emailing them for every little detail sounds tedious.

Ooh, this can be added to the conspiracy theories, though. If they know all my stats, it follows they can monitor all my stats and make sure that they fall within certain parameters to ensure a "fair game". Ironically, by ensuring a "fair game", it would be anything but. Add it to the pile.
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Old 01-11-2010, 12:03 AM   #11799
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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What a clear cut case of Jackin-MeHoff syndrome!
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Old 01-11-2010, 12:26 AM   #11800
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I agree that this would have to be addressed and dealt with. If there needs to be a lot of people in on "It", and I am not convinced of this, it would need to be a very specific and tech saavy group of individuals. Could there be a group of individuals who do this kind of stuff for a living? I would also say that it would all be in the programming, and would not need constant tweaking because it would be reactive programming based on historicals and real time scenarios.

If we are talking about why they would do this? The answer is greed.

You are right to believe that most likely, there is nothing evil going on at the major sites. Most of me believes this, but part of me continues to proceed with caution based on the circumstantial information I have gathered in my own experiences playing on line and in my discussions with other poker players. I am comfortable enough about the majors to play at lower level, but I am nowhere near willing to play online at the levels I play live. That is my issue though.

Dude (you are one of the few I use this word with because it seems oddly appropriate).

Dude, my point is if there is evil going on it aint going to be all this convoluted crap you keep making up which by sheer coincidence magically explains why you cannot win in micro MTTs on Stars.

If there is evil going on it is simple and effective evil. Your stuff is the type of stuff that James Bond writers would laugh at as insane as they write their next plot about some guy taking over the world.

This is pretending you are being entirely serious in your posts, which I never do. I realize you are being partially serious because you are genuinely frustrated you cannot beat easy online games.

Your rigged theories annoy me because to be blunt - they suck. They are all essentially bad beat whines presented as "what if it is possible that they..." theories when all it is about is your shabby MTT results. They make no sense and they are not even fun like superbots or the guy who went on and on about the Russian mafia.
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