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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:54 PM   #11651
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Spade has posted his site ITT and what he's put up so far is pretty impressive. He's clearly put a lot of work into this so maybe give his a break?
I kind of like the anticipation actually. :-) But it really is close now. I'm working on the final flop results now. Actually, the interpretation of them, since I already know the results. And after these I'll finish the all-in study.
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:07 PM   #11652
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Spade has posted his site ITT and what he's put up so far is pretty impressive. He's clearly put a lot of work into this so maybe give his a break?

I was being sarcastic (I was going to bold that but I know your reading comprehension is well above most peoples' in this thread). You didn't actually think I was trying to bag on him, did you? I appreciate what he's done (and the way he responds to people, too). I haven't checked out his website, but I will. It's not something I really need to check out though. Not only do I not play much online.. I don't think anything's rigged. When you're a losing player, it's your fault.

Btw, you're always cool with me bro. I don't want you to think I was being negative towards you. I just wanted to "clear the air".


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Old 01-05-2010, 10:14 PM   #11653
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
I was being sarcastic (I was going to bold that but I know your reading comprehension is well above most peoples' in this thread). You didn't actually think I was trying to bag on him, did you? I appreciate what he's done (and the way he responds to people, too). I haven't checked out his website, but I will. It's not something I really need to check out though. Not only do I not play much online.. I don't think anything's rigged. When you're a losing player, it's your fault.

Btw, you're always cool with me bro. I don't want you to think I was being negative towards you. I just wanted to "clear the air".


| /.
It's hard to be sarcastic online. There should be a sarcastic font. I also, was surprised by the perceived hammer on spade from you, but now it makes sense that you were being sarcastic.
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:15 PM   #11654
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
I was being sarcastic (I was going to bold that but I know your reading comprehension is well above most peoples' in this thread). You didn't actually think I was trying to bag on him, did you? I appreciate what he's done (and the way he responds to people, too). I haven't checked out his website, but I will. It's not something I really need to check out though. Not only do I not play much online.. I don't think anything's rigged. When you're a losing player, it's your fault.

Btw, you're always cool with me bro. I don't want you to think I was being negative towards you. I just wanted to "clear the air".


| /.
no worries! my sarcasm meter was off on your post, so we can just attach my reply to the one before!

But if the comments don't bother spade they don't bother! I'm all for digs but his work is tremendous (and unpaid) and I hope the rigtards appreciate that!
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:41 PM   #11655
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Spade, I just looked over a little bit of your site. It's very nice. It looks clean and professional. I wish that I could understand the math going on there, but it's appreciated nonetheless. Like I said, I don't think online poker is rigged. If you've seen as much gambling as I have over the years, then you understand that things just seem fishy when you're losing and you can't win no matter how hard you try. Some people will never understand that though. Especially when they're angry. Add to that that there has been some stupid, random cases of "cheating" online, and boom, head shot, the dummies think they have something! It's nice to see that you're actually trying to show them (the riggies) that they don't. It's all in their heads.

Now if only there was a way to get [these] people to change their mentalities..
I'm not rich enough to hand out free money to every online [poker] loser and I don't want to coach every guy on how to get laid, so.. <---- That would fix most of them though


Again spade, nice work on the site and great job on the work you've put in with your analysis. I'm sure a lot more people out there appreciate it, too (even if it goes unsaid). And I hope you weren't offended by what I said. I was just trying to make a [sarcastic] joke.

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Old 01-05-2010, 11:05 PM   #11656
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

It's all good, and thanks for the notes. Two final explanatory posts are going up tonight before the big reveal on the distribution of flops. That may be another day or two.
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:58 AM   #11657
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'll tell you whats rigged!!!! Is the Godamm NBA!!!!! Those bastards!!! What a load of sh*t that leage is. Super rigged even.

*end rant- sorry for ranting itt to all the good poasters in here trying to edumacate fools*
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:17 AM   #11658
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

[QUOTE][It's all good, and thanks for the notes. Two final explanatory posts are going up tonight before the big reveal on the distribution of flops. That may be another day or two.

/QUOTE]

What good is that? The servers need to be inspected by an unbaised 3rd party. Which will never happen. That is what is missing from the equation and why they are fighting to the death to have the US legalize it without relocating to the US. It's the biggest joke I have seen. Glad that no congressman or senator outside of Frank and a few others will vote for it.
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:28 AM   #11659
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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What good is that? The servers need to be inspected by an unbaised 3rd party. Which will never happen. That is what is missing from the equation and why they are fighting to the death to have the US legalize it without relocating to the US. It's the biggest joke I have seen. Glad that no congressman or senator outside of Frank and a few others will vote for it.
Wow, you really don't understand how RNG's work do you?
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Old 01-06-2010, 03:28 AM   #11660
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Wow, you really don't understand how RNG's work do you?
If they use a RNG !!

Random games we can discuss about the RNG.
Not random games there is no RNG

Would be surprised to see any kind of rigged games in the analyses via PT or ecpected results. The only possible way to rigg the games nearly undetectable is action / big potts / high rake...biggest effect in micro small stakes.
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Old 01-06-2010, 03:47 AM   #11661
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

[QUOTE=banonlinepoker;15872025]
Quote:
[It's all good, and thanks for the notes. Two final explanatory posts are going up tonight before the big reveal on the distribution of flops. That may be another day or two.

/QUOTE]

What good is that? The servers need to be inspected by an unbaised 3rd party. Which will never happen. That is what is missing from the equation and why they are fighting to the death to have the US legalize it without relocating to the US. It's the biggest joke I have seen. Glad that no congressman or senator outside of Frank and a few others will vote for it.
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Old 01-06-2010, 07:38 AM   #11662
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Got Nutz? View Post
I'll tell you whats rigged!!!! Is the Godamm NBA!!!!! Those bastards!!! What a load of sh*t that leage is. Super rigged even.

*end rant- sorry for ranting itt to all the good poasters in here trying to edumacate fools*

I'll tell you what's rigged!! LIFE!!


Get used to it!
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:15 AM   #11663
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Old 01-06-2010, 06:06 PM   #11664
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Wow, you really don't understand how RNG's work do you?
Wow, you think the only way to rig is through the RNG.
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:09 PM   #11665
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Got Nutz? View Post
I'll tell you whats rigged!!!! Is the Godamm NBA!!!!! Those bastards!!! What a load of sh*t that leage is. Super rigged even.

*end rant- sorry for ranting itt to all the good poasters in here trying to edumacate fools*
LOL I remember a Knicks pro scoring in the wrong basket with like two seconds to go, thus changing the outcome versus the line. And it was not a close game.
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:12 PM   #11666
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Wow, you think the only way to rig is through the RNG.
Some of you are kind of missing the point. It doesn't matter if a poker site uses a true RNG that works properly, or draws cards out of a hat, or flips coins to know which button to push. All that matters is the output. Either the deck comes out randomly or it doesn't, and that is observable and measurable by players. A random process means no predictable or repeating patterns, and a normal distribution over the long run. The expected closeness to normal is proportional to sample size in known ratios (like SD= sqrt(npq))
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:48 PM   #11667
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Wow, you think the only way to rig is through the RNG.
::facepalm::
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:29 PM   #11668
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Either the deck comes out randomly or it doesn't, and that is observable and measurable by players. A random process means no predictable or repeating patterns, and a normal distribution over the long run. The expected closeness to normal is proportional to sample size in known ratios (like SD= sqrt(npq))
A computer can't generate a true random event. Which is something else they never tell you. It's always variance. How many hands. It's comeplete BS. FT is really hating me now I can't win a hand. last 48 hours I have lost 12 out of 14 all in 70-30 hands. Way to go FT. Keep up that good work.
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Old 01-06-2010, 08:36 PM   #11669
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

It's ****ing rigged.
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:33 PM   #11670
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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A computer can't generate a true random event.
If this was the 1970's, you would be correct.

Is it, in fact, the 1970's?
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:53 PM   #11671
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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A computer can't generate a true random event. Which is something else they never tell you. It's always variance. How many hands. It's comeplete BS. FT is really hating me now I can't win a hand. last 48 hours I have lost 12 out of 14 all in 70-30 hands. Way to go FT. Keep up that good work.
Computers can measure physical phenomenon that is expected to be random and then compensate for possible biases. This would result in truly random numbers and I believe this is how many RNG's work. You're confusing pseudorandom number generators with RNG's. You should look it up in Google, it would maybe eliminate some of the confusion for you.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:05 PM   #11672
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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You should read the dozens of responses to your identical lies earlier in this very read, it would reveal that you're just a lying liar that lies.
FYP.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:23 PM   #11673
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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A random process means no predictable or repeating patterns, and a normal distribution over the long run. The expected closeness to normal is proportional to sample size in known ratios (like SD= sqrt(npq))
I still don't understand how you can know that you ever have a complete sample size without knowing hole cards that didn't get to show down. I probably never will understand it either.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:25 PM   #11674
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by banonlinepoker View Post
A computer can't generate a true random event. Which is something else they never tell you. It's always variance. How many hands. It's comeplete BS. FT is really hating me now I can't win a hand. last 48 hours I have lost 12 out of 14 all in 70-30 hands. Way to go FT. Keep up that good work.
PokerStars shuffling highlights:

Quote:
•A deck of 52 cards can be shuffled in 52! ways. 52! is about 2^225 (to be precise, 80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,404,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000 ways). We use 249 random bits from both entropy sources (user input and thermal noise) to achieve an even and unpredictable statistical distribution.
•Furthermore, we apply conservative rules to enforce the required degree of randomness; for instance, if user input does not generate required amount of entropy, we do not start the next hand until we obtain the required amount of entropy from Intel RNG.
•We use the SHA-1 cryptographic hash algorithm to mix the entropy gathered from both sources to provide an extra level of security
•We also maintain a SHA-1-based pseudo-random generator to provide even more security and protection from user data attacks
•To convert random bit stream to random numbers within a required range without bias, we use a simple and reliable algorithm. For example, if we need a random number in the range 0-25:
◦we take 5 random bits and convert them to a random number 0-31
◦if this number is greater than 25 we just discard all 5 bits and repeat the process
•This method is not affected by biases related to modulus operation for generation of random numbers that are not 2n, n = 1,2,..
•To perform an actual shuffle, we use another simple and reliable algorithm:
◦first we draw a random card from the original deck (1 of 52) and place it in a new deck - now original deck contains 51 cards and the new deck contains 1 card
◦then we draw another random card from the original deck (1 of 51) and place it on top of the new deck - now original deck contains 50 cards and the new deck contains 2 cards
◦we repeat the process until all cards have moved from the original deck to the new deck
•This algorithm does not suffer from "Bad Distribution Of Shuffles" described in [2]
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54...rogram-656127/

Last edited by M07; 01-06-2010 at 10:48 PM. Reason: added link
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:55 PM   #11675
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I still don't understand how you can know that you ever have a complete sample size without knowing hole cards that didn't get to show down. I probably never will understand it either.
If you want to look at the distribution of what is dealt to you then they are irrelevant. If you want to look at the distribution of community cards then they are not needed. If you want to look at all-ins vs. equity then you have the showdown cards. There are many valid tests you can do without having all hole cards. You can also infer a lot about the folded cards from the community card distribution, pretty accurately with a large sample. I'm not sure what you want to do with all hole cards, but not having them is not very limiting for a statistical analysis. Unknown cards are unknown cards, whether they are in the deck stub or the muck. And most of the unknown cards are not in the muck. It isn't very useful to plot a distribution of folded cards. It would be helpful if your goal is to profile other players, but for analysing the distribution of the deal it isn't essential. And in the context of this thread topic, they are certainly not needed.

Last edited by spadebidder; 01-06-2010 at 11:01 PM.
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