Has it ever occured to you that the guy playing 75/4 is not a winning player overall? Just because he stacked you for a buy-in when he hit his miracle does not mean that he isn't losing that amount and more to me on another table where he plays the same "style".

Its comforting to know that your keen sense of observation is taking note of whats really going on.

Nah, I created a gimmick a few months ago and proposed the weirdest ideas I could think of and instead of having the last laugh with a reveal I got genuinely thanked and applauded by a couple of riggedologists which was oddly unsatisfying.

I will just stick with having fun directly at their expense. I learned my lesson with gimmick accounts.

I just looked at this thread just now, and I would have assumed that other person was a gimmick troll, but many believe what he posted, though I still wonder when any of them will start playing bad on purpose to exploit their secret info.

Variance

Online poker is not rigged. With PT, HEM and datamining players have access to all their stats and I have never ever heard once that stats don't add up.
I personally think it's an excuse losing players use

Go here, sign up, type in their name, and see just how "lucky" they really are.

If winning at online poker was as easy as playing terribly, why would there even be strategy forums here? Wouldn't we all just go online and start shoving K2o?

Or do you think that we're all idiots who've never noticed that bad players are "always" more lucky, and you've just given us the red pill to escape the Matrix?

Look obviosuly it's not rigged billions of hands recorded and all the data adds up.

I think what astounds me the most is not the fact that those who think it's rigged won't listen to reason or statistics. It's definitley the fact that so many of you are convinced online poker is rigged yet still continue to play at these sites??

If I ever decide to start a ponzi or pyramid scheme I will be sure to visit you people first.

Logic has no place in this thread.

To be fair, the purpose of rigging would not to turn losers into winners, but to keep money flowing toward the rake tube, It keeps winners from crushing the games and driving recreational players and their deposits away.

The recent VCPoker shenanigans shows that sites DO want to limit the advantage held be winners who are net withdrawers. The question is whether that desire would lead them to juice the game.

I'm probably being leveled here, but... what's going on at VCPoker?

Edit: Ok, I read about some of that. It seems that it's not VCPoker wanting to limit any advantage, but they did not want winners on their site to avoid fines from iPoker. I think that's an entirely different topic.

Actually, doesn't this situation support the not-rigged position? You've got some sites that set too high a level of rakeback than resulte in them losing money. Instead of all sorts of manipulations of the deal, etc. they just told certain players they couldn't play?

It's a stupid situation but one that shows a much simpler (and transparent) solution by the site.

I'm currently winning at the stakes I play and I honestly think that flops/boards are "Rigged" for ACTION. I know what all the people are going to say "over the long run things even out.." - "its just variance.." and my personal favorite.. "you see more bad beats/suckouts online because your playing more hands.."

Arcticbeatle is a guy whom I've just started speaking to on 2p2 and he plays $5/$10 Live, and, I asked him if he seen more bad beats online as opposed to live and he said "Yeah." Being recently new to playing online, he said it was frustrating and seemed like they were coming "thicker & faster."

I've also seen some people post emails they sent to the stars or ftp after taking some sick beats, and they just say "You only remember the hands you've gotten very unlucky in" (another one of my fav's) and they pretty much just go on to say they've had people check the randomness of their deals. I believe that part.

But, I've also read on some site (I found the link for it here on 2p2) that PStars HIRED a group of ppl to determine whether or not their deals were in fact random. Seems fishy, I'd tell a fat girl she was cute/skinny in front of a group of ppl if she paid me, wouldn't you?

I guess my post was about as pointless as this thread, lol, because I've been playing online since august, and sometimes I hate it, and sometimes I love it, depending on how I'm running I guess. =P

Going to go generally out of character here and respond to your post ion a non sarcastic way as you seem on the cusp of riggedology but are not quite yet a convert.

Everything you say makes perfect sense from your perspective because you are basing all of your information on observations and memory, which will always see patterns and ignore mundane events.

Las Vegas is built on the wallets of people who bet based on such beliefs in all sorts of games where the previous outcomes have no bearing on future events, but they are convinced that red will come up more often after 3 blacks or whatever. In another thread here about UB blackjack one poster said he knows that after a dealer 21 if you close and re-open the software you will win your first 3 hands, and yet he still has nothing to show for it.

You will never be perfectly happy based on your observations and memories because they are extremely flawed methods of gathering and analyzing data of this magnitude, so ask yourself the following question:

Why would a site do whatever it is you think they may be doing?

If your answer is action flops to increase rake then go back in this thread and see how some of the genuine stats freaks broke down this effect if it happened to show it would not even make the sites more money. They also have huge statistical breakdowns of flops which show nothing special.

So from a pure common sense and logic point of view which should I believe more? Real stats guys with no agenda properly manipulating massive quantities of data or a stream of usually below average micro stakes players who claim to see and believe in patterns from memory(yet never capitalize on them).

This is even ignoring the major issue of the risk sites would take in getting caught (either by statistical analysis or an insider telling).


You seem like a genuine fellow, explain to me why your beliefs of "I honestly think that flops/boards are "Rigged" for ACTION," which offer zero actual proof, are more powerful than all of the above logical approaches to the situation.

I've been promising this thread some data on flops and boards from a large hand database, and I almost have it ready. Take a look at this:

http://www.spadebidder.com/category/flop-analysis/

and see if such an analysis is helpful to resolve this question. The final data should be up there pretty soon, but the approach and the design of the tests is there now. There's also some other interesting material on the site. The few locked posts are ones I'm still working on.

Monty - I actually just got back from Vegas is why I didn't have this ready by New Year's.

spade

Cheating was suspected on Absolute Poker, but it took an insider's help to prove it.

This thread is mostly sarcasm and mocking.

Online poker has no obligation to provide an honest game and very little oversight. Accept these conditions when you play.

And you probably play too many hands -- don't do that.

Ha! Just noticed the "Is online poker rigged" poll. The "dunno" option should be offered. LOL

BY WHO? Who is going to catch them? You keep spewing this garbage but the fact is there is nobody regulating these sites. A major site was caught (or an employee was caught) rigging the games. He got into the software and was able to see everyones cards. What happened? NOTHING. The KGC? They are a JOKE. They are being paid millions to host machines because they are immune from any sort of prosecution or oversight. It's like the wild west out there. Anything goes. These sites can and do anything it takes to maximize the bottom line. Have inferior workforce to police the sites for collusion and horrible customer service because it is not in their interest to do so. Russ Hamilton cheated many out of millions and he is free to play poker whether live or online and nothing was ever done about it. He never spent a day in jail, or pald a nickel in fines. Your telling me these sites are scared of rigging the games in case they get caught?

#1, they can't get caught because if someone talked nobody can get into the servers to inspect

#2, there is no competant regulatory body that can do anything about it.

Awesome. Saw that you will have a stats 101 section. Can that be mandatory to read before posting ITT?

I guess most people do remember more unlucky outcomes than favorable ones. But on that note, it seems like I/we see so many situations arise where the most unlikeliest of outcomes takes place.

Do bad beats feel worse than winning a pot feels good? I'd say so, they stick with us longer and affect us emotionally. But, when I see multi-way pots (3-4 ppl) and each player gets enough of the board to be ready to commit their stack, it becomes frustrating and even overwhelming sometimes. Nothing worse than losing a buy-in to a miracle to 2/3 outer on the river time after time. It ruins sessions. Even some players online careers.

BTW, I don't let what other ppl think about online poker and its randomness affect my thinking or play. If I thought it was 100% completely rigged (which I DO NOT) there's no way I'd waste my time. I just think, what if they juiced a flop/board here an there? Whats to stop them? I certainly don't think they spice every pot up, like the guy above, I mean I know they're greedy, but not THAT greedy lol. They'd like to keep going to the well, and there's nothing worse than a dry well right? They've got a golden goose here, and they need it to lay eggs.

But the guy above had a point, there's no governing body to stop them from even slightly juicing things up? I think money keeps them honest to a point. But what do we know?

Also, I haven't looked at his stats link yet, but does it have every player at the tables hole cards included in it?

Yeesh, I thought I had you on ignore, no idea why your standard angry xenophobic post showed up.

How about this - even if the sites are run by evil fatcats twirling their oily mustaches chanting "MUHAHAHA," the reality is that eventually stats freaks like spade or Josem would eventually catch any wrong doings.

So let's pretend we are living in your bile hate filled world where they have nothing to fear at all, even a loss of business (as UB/AP suffered), the reality is they would still get caught, just like the super users were caught.

Let's also pretend that even if someone talked that there is no way to magically look at the servers anyway. Reality is if someone credible DID talk and had proof of what and how the game was rigged that in and by itself would be very compelling even if we never physically saw the servers which seems to be your bizarre magic solution.

Your hate filled world view is flawed because even if we buy into your assumption that evil can be done without consequences, the reality is the evil would still be discovered. Thusfar it has not in any meaningful manner.

Here are some mustaches to consider

http://images.google.ca/images?clien...ed=0CBoQsAQwAA


Eventually you and others will have to decide whether to trust an angry losing micro stakes player who's motives are based on hating native Americans or a math guy doing a ton of valid statistical analysis with no actual agenda.

All the best.

lol, I like you Monty, can I call you Monty?

Like I said, another players negative opinions mean nothing to me. I think I'll continue to stand where I do on this, and until it's proven online poker is a total scam, I'll be at my desktop with my food & drink. Oh and can't forget cigarettes too. =)

Sarcasm doesn't convince anybody, but a ton of valid statistical analysis might. Do the online sites do that? Is there a regulatory body doing it?

Dude, you are a genius. Printed 4 deep observation later.

I have said many times people can believe whatever they like, I am not trying to convince anyone to believe anything.

Aside from having a bit of fun at paranoid people's expense what I do ask for is a logical thought process.

When people say they know new players get a boom switch I ask why they don't simply create a ton of new accounts, make millions and retire. Logical.

spade just linked a huge statistical study and soon he will have more raw data than anyone will ever imagine. You know what impact that will have on riggedologists? None, as they will still "see way too many action hands to believe." They may add in "the sites will just magically manipulate the data so it will not be detected" as well. The Picard "make it so" belief system.

I look forward to that dynamic as it will lead to a new and exciting world of advanced invisible HAL 9000 superbot based rigged theories, which is the way of the future. 2010 - the year we make flush draws.

You're really failing hard right now. Clue: You should probably read at least a few other posts from within the last day or so.

Yea you said that already, yet chose to ignore the question. UB was caught and what happened?

Yea I noticed how much they lost. Also how Phil and Annie cut their ties too.

What happened to them?

And what would happen to them?


Unfortunately my avg buy in is the same as yours and I don't hate native americans. Just because someone brings to light facts you disagree with doesn't automatically mean hate. That is a left wing spin tactic that you have down pretty well.

Bring the servers and entire site workings to Nevada and let the NGC ovesee them. Until then you can't trust the integrity of the games. Simply because an Indian Tribe has made a deal with you to host your hardware doesn't make it so.