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Old 12-13-2009, 09:10 AM   #11076
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by txpstwx View Post


imo
A+

also liked tk's time traveling theory
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:22 AM   #11077
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I wrote this somewhere else in response to someone who posted about some idiot's blog (about how he was an engineer/programmer for FTP and that FT was rigged). Can someone please fix my post, if it needs fixing, anywhere they see fit. And of course I'm not asking any of you who believe online poker IS rigged. K

"The only way FullTilt cares who wins is if they sponsor you and you play on TV. Other than that, they could care less. And as already mentioned, there is a max rake. What the poker sites do want, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is new players. Why would they rig their games (against all of the losers who think they do) when they want new players? Wouldn't this defeat the purpose? If I was a bank and cheated my existing customers, wouldn't that prevent me from being able to effectively get new customers. I don't want anyone turned away (or turned off). Look at Enron. They don't have customers anymore. You cheat, you lose big time. It's not worth their time. And they're too cheap to cheat.. it would cost so much more money to cheat "certain" players and not others. That would require [very] active and [very] real-time software and would create a much heavier load on their servers. If they were cheating it WOULD get detected.

And my last point.. let's say they were creating "action flops" (get everyone in hands to hit the max rake as soon as possible). If this was the case, the game would still be "technically" legit. It's the same game for everyone. You decide which hands you play and whether or not you even play at all.

It's like blaming guns for killing people or blaming flies for trash."



Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:45 AM   #11078
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
"The only way FullTilt cares who wins is if they sponsor you and you play on TV. Other than that, they could care less. So they evidently do care to some degree. And as already mentioned, there is a max rake. What the poker sites do want, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is new players. Why would they rig their games (against all of the losers who think they do) when they want new players? Wouldn't this defeat the purpose? If I was a bank and cheated my existing customers, wouldn't that prevent me from being able to effectively get new customers. I don't want anyone turned away (or turned off). Look at Enron. They don't have customers anymore. You cheat, you lose big time. It's not worth their time. And they're too cheap to cheat.. it would cost so much more money to cheat "certain" players and not others. That would require [very] active and [very] real-time software and would create a much heavier load on their servers. If they were cheating it WOULD get detected.

And my last point.. let's say they were creating "action flops" (get everyone in hands to hit the max rake as soon as possible). If this was the case, the game would still be "technically" legit. It's the same game for everyone. You decide which hands you play and whether or not you even play at all.

It's like blaming guns for killing people or blaming flies for trash."
Pretty good post.

The last line is tendentious, though. (And wrong. There is no analogue.)
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:51 AM   #11079
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
I wrote this somewhere else in response to someone who posted about some idiot's blog (about how he was an engineer/programmer for FTP and that FT was rigged). Can someone please fix my post, if it needs fixing, anywhere they see fit. And of course I'm not asking any of you who believe online poker IS rigged. K

"The only way FullTilt cares who wins is if they sponsor you and you play on TV. Other than that, they couldn't care less. And as already mentioned, there is a max rake. What the poker sites do want, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is new players. Why would they rig their games (against all of the losers who think they do) when they want new players? Wouldn't this defeat the purpose? If I was a bank and cheated my existing customers, wouldn't that prevent me from being able to effectively get new customers. I don't want anyone turned away (or turned off). Look at Enron. They don't have customers anymore. You cheat, you lose big time. It's not worth their time. And they're too cheap to cheat.. it would cost so much more money to cheat "certain" players and not others. That would require [very] active and [very] real-time software and would create a much heavier load on their servers. If they were cheating it WOULD get detected.

And my last point.. let's say they were creating "action flops" (get everyone in hands to hit the max rake as soon as possible). If this was the case, the game would still be "technically" legit. It's the same game for everyone. You decide which hands you play and whether or not you even play at all.

It's like blaming guns for killing people or blaming flies for trash."



Thanks in advance.
I know that isn't what you meant but that expression really tilts me.
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Old 12-13-2009, 12:04 PM   #11080
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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And my last point.. let's say they were creating "action flops" (get everyone in hands to hit the max rake as soon as possible). If this was the case, the game would still be "technically" legit.
It's very likely that action flops would not increase overall rake, as has been discussed a lot before. And no, it most certainly would not be legit or a fair game, it would be exploitable for profit by anyone who knew it was occurring (like all riggedness theories).
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:18 PM   #11081
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I know that isn't what you meant but that expression really tilts me.
There is a certain type of stupidity involved in saying the exact opposite of what you actually mean.

The sort of thing you might expect of ditzy schoolgirls but it seems a little out of place amongst adults.
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Old 12-13-2009, 02:19 PM   #11082
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I know that isn't what you meant but that expression really tilts me.
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Old 12-13-2009, 04:11 PM   #11083
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

So which is it? I'm confused. I meant to say that besides the players that they sponsor, they don't really care who wins (and who doesn't). I'm trying to imply that they care [about their sponsored players winning] because it's positive marketing (advertising for their site). So is it "couldn't care less"? That does sound right now that I've read it again.

And you're also saying that it is incorrect to say that if they were creating action flops, the game would still be legit (I meant to say fair) for everyone? I was trying to imply or make a comparison to carnival games. They're "rigged" to be hard, but they're still fair (they are beatable). No good, huh? I should've just left that part out?

** Also, on that action flop thing.. I remember hearing that slot machines are arranged in a way to have a lot of "real close winners" appear often, as to entice the player to keep going for the jackpots. I was thinking the same could be said for action flops in online poker. I'm not saying that it does occur. I meant to imply that even if it did..


** And I see what you mean about the analogy at the very end. I don't know what I was thinking on that one. It doesn't fit or make any sense.

Last edited by LVGambler; 12-13-2009 at 04:24 PM. Reason: sounded good at the time lol
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Old 12-13-2009, 04:56 PM   #11084
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
So which is it? I'm confused. I meant to say that besides the players that they sponsor, they don't really care who wins (and who doesn't). I'm trying to imply that they care [about their sponsored players winning] because it's positive marketing (advertising for their site). So is it "couldn't care less"? That does sound right now that I've read it again.
Just think it through.

"Couldn't care less" means they don't care - they care so little that it isn't possible to care any less than they do.

"Could care less" doesn't really mean much of anything IMO. It's possible to care less than they do, and I guess it's possible to care more.
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Old 12-13-2009, 05:19 PM   #11085
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

"That does sound right now that I've read it again."

I was just making sure. Thanks.
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Old 12-13-2009, 05:42 PM   #11086
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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** Also, on that action flop thing.. I remember hearing that slot machines are arranged in a way to have a lot of "real close winners" appear often, as to entice the player to keep going for the jackpots. I was thinking the same could be said for action flops in online poker. I'm not saying that it does occur. I meant to imply that even if it did..
In the U.S. such machines are outlawed, I don't know about anywhere else. Slot machines produce random results using an RNG by legal requirement. The payouts are based on combinations that will come up a desired percentage of the time, as calculated from all possible outcomes.
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Old 12-13-2009, 05:43 PM   #11087
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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"That does sound right now that I've read it again."

I was just making sure. Thanks.
Yeah, I wasn't trying poke fun...you're correct.
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Old 12-13-2009, 06:40 PM   #11088
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
In the U.S. such machines are outlawed, I don't know about anywhere else. Slot machines produce random results using an RNG by legal requirement. The payouts are based on combinations that will come up a desired percentage of the time, as calculated from all possible outcomes.
[Totally OT for "poker is rigged" but I'm curious]

Do you have any info on legal requirements of slots machines? Links?

I've seen TV programs on Vegas casinos and they showed how they "adjust" the machines so that some are tighter and some are looser. I'm curious to know what "adjustments" would be legal wand what would not.

(Just curious, I'm not often in casinos, and when I am, I only play slots for whatever loose pocket change I may have at the time ... and always walk away with jingleless pockets !! )
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Old 12-13-2009, 07:20 PM   #11089
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by obviously.bogus View Post
[Totally OT for "poker is rigged" but I'm curious]

Do you have any info on legal requirements of slots machines? Links?

I've seen TV programs on Vegas casinos and they showed how they "adjust" the machines so that some are tighter and some are looser. I'm curious to know what "adjustments" would be legal wand what would not.

(Just curious, I'm not often in casinos, and when I am, I only play slots for whatever loose pocket change I may have at the time ... and always walk away with jingleless pockets !! )
All the requirements for Nevada are published by the NGC at
http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs.htm#regs
but you'll have to look to find the docs, I've seen them before. What can be adjusted is the payout percentages, which does not alter the outcomes of the random spins. They design the machines for certain payout percentages, by the number of picture types on the each virtual reel and by how much you win on certain combinations. In Nevada there are machines set anywhere from 90% to 97% payouts, other states may be different. Nevada's minimum legal requirement is only 75%, so the higher numbers are driven by the competitive market. They also adjust whether they pay a lot of small prizes or a few big prizes too, to add up to the desired payout percentage.

But in all cases the spins are random and all possible reel combinations will come up the same number over time. That's true for all U.S. slots as far as I know.

Last edited by spadebidder; 12-13-2009 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 12-13-2009, 08:46 PM   #11090
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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But in all cases the spins are random and all possible reel combinations will come up the same number over time. That's true for all U.S. slots as far as I know.
Thanks for the link. Its a little too dense and full of legalize for casual reading, but I'm sure you are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
** Also, on that action flop thing.. I remember hearing that slot machines are arranged in a way to have a lot of "real close winners" appear often, as to entice the player to keep going for the jackpots. I was thinking the same could be said for action flops in online poker. I'm not saying that it does occur. I meant to imply that even if it did..
But LVGambler's point seems to be correct ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_machine

The table of probabilities for a specific machine is called the Paytable and Reel Strips sheet, or PARS. The Wizard of Odds revealed the PARS for one commercial slot machine, an original International Gaming Technology Red White and Blue machine. This game, in its original form, is obsolete, so these specific probabilities do not apply. He only published the odds after a fan of his sent him some information provided on a slot machine that was posted on a machine in the Netherlands. The psychology of the machine design is quickly revealed. There are 13 possible payouts ranging from 1:1 to 2,400:1. The 1:1 payout comes every 8 plays. The 5:1 payout comes every 33 plays, whereas the 2:1 payout comes every 600 plays. Most players assume the likelihood increases proportionate to the payout. The one midsize payout that is designed to give the player a thrill is the 80:1 payout. It is programmed to occur an average of once every 219 plays. The 80:1 payout is high enough to create excitement, but not high enough that it makes it likely that the player will take his winnings and abandon the game. More than likely the player began the game with at least 80 times his bet (for instance there are 80 quarters in $20). In contrast the 150:1 payout occurs only on average of once every 6,241 plays. The highest payout of 2,400:1 occurs only on average of once every 643=262,144 plays since the machine has 64 virtual stops. The player who continues to feed the machine is likely to have several midsize payouts, but unlikely to have a large payout. He quits after he is bored or has exhausted his bankroll. [15]


Yes its random, but designed to generate action.

To bring this back to poker, the last time I played a "Joker Poker" machine at a casino was before I understood poker or ever played online. So is the deal of the cards "real" on those machines? I understand that the payouts will be set to favor the house, but are the chances of hitting any particular hand correct?
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:44 PM   #11091
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by obviously.bogus View Post
To bring this back to poker, the last time I played a "Joker Poker" machine at a casino was before I understood poker or ever played online. So is the deal of the cards "real" on those machines? I understand that the payouts will be set to favor the house, but are the chances of hitting any particular hand correct?
The payouts "favoring the house" simply means the machine is only going to spit out X% of the money put into it. The spin is completely random on a (U.S.) slot machine, just like dealing a deck of cards. When they design the machine, they put different numbers of each picture on the virtual reels (the "deck") to design the winning combinations they want to occur, and they decide how big a prize to give on those combinations. The winning combinations times the payout on each one, will sum up to the desired payout percentage for the machine. Putting more winning picture combinations on the reels (which never changes after it is programmed) makes more payouts happen. Then chance makes that payout percentage happen in the long run.

Here's a simple example. I design a single-reel machine and use 10 different pictures. I want to pay out 90% of the money put in over time. So I decide to pay out 700% of the amount that has been paid in since the last payout, when one specific picture hits (which is 10% of the time or 70% payout). And then we pay out 40% of the amount paid in since the last hit, on 5 of the other pictures (20% more payout), and not pay anything on the other 4 pictures. And of course the money has to be seeded on startup to pay the early hits, so the first payouts would be some seeded amount. Now we have a total payout of 90% of money that goes in. Then you spin away randomly and the house pays out 90% and keeps 10%, in the long run. Obviously the designs are more complex.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:30 PM   #11092
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

BTW - the above was still about slots, I don't know what "Joker Poker" is, I thought you were referring to a slot machine.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:42 PM   #11093
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

spadebidder: I'm sure your right in regards to regular slot machines, but I was wondering about what I know as "Joker Poker". This is a game played on a video screen where simple game of draw poker is played. Its been a long time since I've played it, but iirc, the player is dealt 5 cards on the screen. The player can then stand pat or discard one or more cards. I think it was single draw, but some games may have been double or triple draw. The game payed out fixed amounts for different hands. Something like 2x for 2 pair, 3x for trips 4x for a str8, etc etc.

Does this game (and is it required by law) deal randomly from a 52 card deck in the manner of a regular poker game, or does it work on some other set of rules that just looks like poker, but somehow still conforms to gaming laws.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:51 PM   #11094
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
In the U.S. such machines are outlawed, I don't know about anywhere else. Slot machines produce random results using an RNG by legal requirement. The payouts are based on combinations that will come up a desired percentage of the time, as calculated from all possible outcomes.
Machines that have a lot of "close wins" are not outlawed. I think you just misunderstood me. I was referring to the layouts of the reels and not anything that has to do with odds or the payouts. And not all slot machines use RNG devices. There are still plenty of pull-handle, mechanical slot machines out there. But that's besides the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obviously.bogus View Post
[Totally OT for "poker is rigged" but I'm curious]

Do you have any info on legal requirements of slots machines? Links?

I've seen TV programs on Vegas casinos and they showed how they "adjust" the machines so that some are tighter and some are looser. I'm curious to know what "adjustments" would be legal wand what would not.

(Just curious, I'm not often in casinos, and when I am, I only play slots for whatever loose pocket change I may have at the time ... and always walk away with jingleless pockets !! )
http://wizardofodds.com/slots/
http://vegasclick.com/games/slots/how-they-work.html (explains RNG)
http://www.slotmachinesuperstore.com/index.shtml
http://www.howstuffworks.com/slot-machine.htm (mechanical)
http://vegasclick.com/games/slots/ (more info)

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
All the requirements for Nevada are published by the NGC at
http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs.htm#regs
but you'll have to look to find the docs, I've seen them before. What can be adjusted is the payout percentages, which does not alter the outcomes of the random spins. They design the machines for certain payout percentages, by the number of picture types on the each virtual reel and by how much you win on certain combinations. In Nevada there are machines set anywhere from 90% to 97% payouts, other states may be different. Nevada's minimum legal requirement is only 75%, so the higher numbers are driven by the competitive market. They also adjust whether they pay a lot of small prizes or a few big prizes too, to add up to the desired payout percentage.

But in all cases the spins are random and all possible reel combinations will come up the same number over time. That's true for all U.S. slots as far as I know.
Programming the machine's computer chip is the only way to "adjust" a slot machine or video poker machine (this is 100% independent of the RNG). This requires contacting the NV Gaming Commission (EVERY TIME). So they can't just adjust them at will. The same goes for adding or removing tables and/or machines on the casino floor. They can't just add an extra machine or table whenever they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obviously.bogus View Post
Thanks for the link. Its a little too dense and full of legalize for casual reading, but I'm sure you are right.



But LVGambler's point seems to be correct ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_machine

The table of probabilities for a specific machine is called the Paytable and Reel Strips sheet, or PARS. The Wizard of Odds revealed the PARS for one commercial slot machine, an original International Gaming Technology Red White and Blue machine. This game, in its original form, is obsolete, so these specific probabilities do not apply. He only published the odds after a fan of his sent him some information provided on a slot machine that was posted on a machine in the Netherlands. The psychology of the machine design is quickly revealed. There are 13 possible payouts ranging from 1:1 to 2,400:1. The 1:1 payout comes every 8 plays. The 5:1 payout comes every 33 plays, whereas the 2:1 payout comes every 600 plays. Most players assume the likelihood increases proportionate to the payout. The one midsize payout that is designed to give the player a thrill is the 80:1 payout. It is programmed to occur an average of once every 219 plays. The 80:1 payout is high enough to create excitement, but not high enough that it makes it likely that the player will take his winnings and abandon the game. More than likely the player began the game with at least 80 times his bet (for instance there are 80 quarters in $20). In contrast the 150:1 payout occurs only on average of once every 6,241 plays. The highest payout of 2,400:1 occurs only on average of once every 643=262,144 plays since the machine has 64 virtual stops. The player who continues to feed the machine is likely to have several midsize payouts, but unlikely to have a large payout. He quits after he is bored or has exhausted his bankroll. [15]


Yes its random, but designed to generate action.

To bring this back to poker, the last time I played a "Joker Poker" machine at a casino was before I understood poker or ever played online. So is the deal of the cards "real" on those machines? I understand that the payouts will be set to favor the house, but are the chances of hitting any particular hand correct?
All video poker machines' cards are "dealt" randomly (via RNG). The amount of money a casino is allowed to "hold" is based on an average. This "average" varies from game to game and from denomination to denomination. As far as video poker machines are concerned, the lower the denomination, the higher the house "hold" is. For example, if you put a $100 bill into a penny machine, the % the house is allowed to "hold" (keep) is much higher than that of a $1 dollar machine. The $5 dollar machines "hold" less than the $1 dollar machines. So, the next time you think you're "saving money" by playing the penny slots, think again. It's like the rake in poker. The higher the rake, the less you'll make in the long run.


A few of my favorite sites:

http://wizardofodds.com/
http://www.advantageplayer.com
http://www.thebeargrowls.com/



** By the way obviously.bogus, there are 3 types of Joker Poker Machines
(if it's the game I'm thinking of):

http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/t...wildkings.html
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/t...rwildaces.html
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/t...ldtwopair.html


Boyd group "Game Finder"

https://www.bconnectedonline.com/slot-search

Last edited by LVGambler; 12-13-2009 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:01 PM   #11095
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Cool, now let's get back to riggednessaments. Inquiring minds want to know.

/OT hijack
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:58 PM   #11096
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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** By the way obviously.bogus, there are 3 types of Joker Poker Machines
(if it's the game I'm thinking of):

http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/t...wildkings.html
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/t...rwildaces.html
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/t...ldtwopair.html
Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. And who knew that optimal play can return 99.5-100.7% !!!!

I was quite clearly playing it all wrong !!!!1!


/OT hijack (I promise)
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:37 AM   #11097
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Optimal strategy.. "lose less" every time

Last edited by LVGambler; 12-14-2009 at 06:39 AM. Reason: and now back to your regular programming..
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:54 AM   #11098
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I know this guy who's dating this girl, who has a friend that knows this guy, who's best friend is friends with a guy who sat at a table next to Mike Matusow, who was talking to another guy that has a friend who works with this guy that said he used to be a programmer for Full Tilt. And he told him that Full Tilt was rigged. Believe what you want, but these people would not lie about such a random thing, and I have no reason to ramble about such remarks if not true.



Last edited by LVGambler; 12-14-2009 at 06:55 AM. Reason: did i mention mike matusow is a lizard?
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:24 AM   #11099
qpw
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
I know this guy who's dating this girl, who has a friend that knows this guy, who's best friend is friends with a guy who sat at a table next to Mike Matusow, who was talking to another guy that has a friend who works with this guy that said he used to be a programmer for Full Tilt. And he told him that Full Tilt was rigged. Believe what you want, but these people would not lie about such a random thing, and I have no reason to ramble about such remarks if not true.
Good parody but a little more articulate than the real thing.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:35 AM   #11100
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Good parody but a little more articulate than the real thing.
Additional "tells" ...
  • Used punctuation.
  • Used capitals.
  • Used "you" not "u".
  • Used "guy" not "dood".

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