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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:00 AM   #11001
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
To any intelligent player, yes. To a rigtard, no (but then nothing would ever satisfy a rigtard).



Yes.

It wasn't rigged.
link?
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:24 AM   #11002
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
you have pm
awesome, I knew that was it all along I just couldn't put the final pieces together

already up 5 dollars!!!!
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:51 AM   #11003
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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link?
Search?
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:52 AM   #11004
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
The key here is do you know how many runner runners have beaten your sets or top pair?
And, perhaps more to the point, do you know how many haven't?
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:02 PM   #11005
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

The funny thing is most "rigtards" including myself have probably played more hands online than most of the "non-rigtards" (kingoffelt,monteroy,qpw)... I'd bet money I've probably played more hands and won more than all 3 combined online... Let me guess... You guys are microstake grinders? Occasional depositors? ... Where does your credibility lye?
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:08 PM   #11006
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
The funny thing is most "rigtards" including myself have probably played more hands online than most of the "non-rigtards" (kingoffelt,monteroy,qpw)... I'd bet money I've probably played more hands and won more than all 3 combined online... Let me guess... You guys are microstake grinders? Occasional depositors? ... Where does your credibility lye?
You don't get credibility by the number of hands you play. You get it by your approach to the problem at hand. You get it by following sound reasoning in your analysis of the problem at hand. We could ask a mathematician who has never played a hand of poker in his life to develop a test for figuring out whether the deal is rigged or not and ask him to analyze the same dataset that spadebidder is using, and he would likely be very credible. He would describe is methods, provide summaries, access to the data, etc.

If you want credibility, step away from motives and look at end result.
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:19 PM   #11007
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
The funny thing is most "rigtards" including myself have probably played more hands online than most of the "non-rigtards" (kingoffelt,monteroy,qpw)... I'd bet money I've probably played more hands and won more than all 3 combined online...
This just demonstrates, yet again, if any demonstration were needed, what a complete and utter idiot Smears or R4R or whatever he's calling himself today is.

How can he possibly have the vaguest notion how many hands players whom he only knows as online entities have played?

The fact that he can convince himself that he does, on zero evidence (can anyone see a pattern here? ), says a lot about his mental makeup.

Quote:
Let me guess... You guys are microstake grinders? Occasional depositors?
Well, I'll agree that I only deposit very occasionally!

Quote:
Where does your credibility lye?
To anyone who is not a professional idiot-boy it lies in the careful logic of the explanations we give to the non-******ed people who post and actually want to gain a greater understanding of what is happening rather than try and promulgate their evidence free paranoid conspiracy theories.

To the poster children for retrospective abortion we really couldn't give a gnat's fart about credibility.

Have a nice day.
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:19 PM   #11008
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I've already thoroughly explained my sound theory of timing on this issue and how it could go undetected. I developed this theory after playing countless hours and hand histories and seeing certain things occurring in certain situations.. Yes, over millions and millions of hh you'd be able to detect such things but the average auditer is not looking at a players account history (deposits, withdrawals) and the users previous actions (wins or losses). Many many many people online run way under expected value including myself but even I know this is not concrete evidence.. I do not believe if the games were rigged these billion dollar companies would be stupid enough to make it so easily detectable a guy on 2+2 could bring it all down with a few hand histories and some average statistical tests... I think its alittle more complex than that....
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:28 PM   #11009
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
The funny thing is most "rigtards" including myself have probably played more hands online than most of the "non-rigtards" (kingoffelt,monteroy,qpw)... I'd bet money I've probably played more hands and won more than all 3 combined online... Let me guess... You guys are microstake grinders? Occasional depositors? ... Where does your credibility lye?
I can't speak for the other guys but you can search my results for Stars at least. The sit and gos are 90% from this year starting in April, and same with the MTTs. Think it's been about 7,000 to 8,000 sit and gos so far and maybe 700 MTts.

I still play some cash games and VIP tournaments on ipoker and played an extensive amount on Crypto and Party for a few years, about 250,000 hands though most of those were bonus whoring in the good old days (woo another $200 Party bonus...), and most of the better value on Crypto came from their overlay MTTs which were a silly gold mine (2-3k per month) for years.

I did a lot of casino whoring back in the day as well, so I probably have played more hands of video poker and black jack then you ever will :P. Currently about $800-1000 is available in EV per month in that still which is nice (though a lot of clicking).

Feel free to post your screen names so we can compare results. As if that will happen =).

In terms of deposits, at this point it's only for bonuses and promotions. I withdraw from time to time though via a check.

I get the ego angle you are trying to pull here, but I am very transparent in my play in terms of what I do and my player ID, so in future just list those who are not so much, because I will raise you when you do that and then watch you fold by not revealing your actual info =).

All the best.

P.S. When are you going to stop talking about your timing theory and instead make a chunk (with proof) from it. Lots have similar, though valid, statistical systems for games like baccarat (where once in a while a very +EV tie bet will exist), but they actually capitalize on their systems. All you riggedologists do is talk about them. Where's the beef (and the money)?
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:34 PM   #11010
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
I've already thoroughly explained my sound theory of timing on this issue and how it could go undetected.
And you explantions were rubbish.

Quote:
I developed this theory after playing countless hours and hand histories and seeing certain things occurring in certain situations.
And yet you believe that a computer that can examine millions of HH's a minute cannot see these patterns.

Quote:
Yes, over millions and millions of hh you'd be able to detect such things but the average auditer is not looking at a players account history (deposits, withdrawals) and the users previous actions (wins or losses). Many many many people online run way under expected value including myself but even I know this is not concrete evidence.. I do not believe if the games were rigged these billion dollar companies would be stupid enough to make it so easily detectable a guy on 2+2 could bring it all down with a few hand histories and some average statistical tests... I think its alittle more complex than that....
You never seem to get the obvious point that if the deal was being rigged to the extent that a player could actually detect that it was rigged it would yield a monumental rate of loss.

Your deluded theory is that the sites rig the deal in order to keep the fish playing.

So what you are suggesting is that a very inexpert player (the fish) gets a smaller rate of loss that is noticeable with even his limited ability (it would have to be noticeable if it was to have any success in keeping him playing), and yet the concomitant increase in the rate of loss of the better, expert, players is only detectable to a select few and the majority of expert players are quite happy that the deal is fair.
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:58 PM   #11011
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I love how R4R thinks being a frequent depositor is something that one should be proud of.
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:24 PM   #11012
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I love how R4R thinks being a frequent depositor is something that one should be proud of.
He is a bit of a comedian, isn't he?
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:34 PM   #11013
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
Many many many people online run way under expected value including myself but even I know this is not concrete evidence..
Evidence of what, that 1-1 = 0?
The EV of every hand in poker totals 0, and the variance from EV of every hand = 0. Exactly zero. The players exactly cancel each other out, precisely and always. For you to be under EV, somebody is over EV. If you measured 50% of the player universe and found the average to be (any amount) offset from EV, then the other half would average the exact amount needed to cancel that out to zero.

Try again.
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:58 PM   #11014
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

If you dont win enough simple dont play.

I also played alot between 2002 and 2007, but it was free money and a good hourly rate with no risk.

Todays poker is such boring and such a waste of time for me, for me the hourly rate is too low.

Rigged cards or not is not so important, only do you win or do you loose.
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:02 PM   #11015
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Evidence of what, that 1-1 = 0?
The EV of every hand in poker totals 0, and the variance from EV of every hand = 0. Exactly zero. The players exactly cancel each other out, precisely and always. For you to be under EV, somebody is over EV. If you measured 50% of the player universe and found the average to be (any amount) offset from EV, then the other half would average the exact amount needed to cancel that out to zero.

Try again.
Wouldn't rake change this? Note, I am not suggesting his or anyone else's "I know how the system is rigged and I have nothing to show for it" methods have any merit, but I would imagine the rake could have a healthy impact on EV graphs depending on it's relative importance.

PA paying $100 in rake while winning or losing $1 million to Isuldur would not be noticed on an EV graph, but at the lower stakes a HU match could chew up a lot of the profits in rake.
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:16 PM   #11016
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
If you play this badly it's no wonder you feel you are being cheated.

How do you think your lies about the prize money for this tournament reflects on the credibility of your "rigged" theories?
I dont always play this badly, but this was an example of bad play. Look at my stats for FT "BadMonkey619" and The name I have listed there for pokerstars. I have had some good runs where I was playing well and not getting sucked out on. The hand history was just for amusement. I sucked out on the turn, the other player sucked out on the river. The prize pool was almost $6k, look back in the thread for Josems posting of the tournament I was talking about. I was mad that my suckout got sucked out on. That is all.

Lately, I am getting cheated by the cards and some tilt and poor play. I can fix the poor play, but I cant fix how the cards have been falling. I won a live tournament at Viejas last night, so I feel better about my play again...the cards arent rigged live, they are hand shuffled in front of you. I am hoping that they arent rigged online, but no one to this point in time has presented an argument strong enough to make me feel 100% sure. That is ok, as long as I am better than 70% sure I will still play online. :0)

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 12-10-2009 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:29 PM   #11017
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I think he's already admitted he played the hand badly.

Also Donko (and anyone posting individual HHs in this thread) please use the handconverter! Makes them much easier to read!
Sorry, I will take a look at how to use that next time I post something.
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:31 PM   #11018
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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If you dont win enough simple dont play.
........
Rigged cards or not is not so important, only do you win or do you loose.
This!
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:32 PM   #11019
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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god, u are so bad. u are live player who sometimes plays online, right?
LOL! Yup

I am somewhere near break even between two sites online. Down on one, up on another. I posted my screen names in the thread to confirm this. Still making big mistakes online. As soon as I plug some more holes like these, I will be busting you out of tournaments. LOLOLOL!
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:40 PM   #11020
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Not to **** on Donko, because God knows I'm just a lowly microstakes player as who has tons to work on his game) but I think is an very good example of how bad play can be converted in one's mind as either bad luck or "ZOMG its rigged!" Both folding or raising preflop would have very likely turned this hand into one that either didn't cost any chips, or gained chips.

The difference between me and a rigtard is that when I make a boneheaded play like this (and I have made plenty!) I don't blame the site, I blame myself.

I think we are often very poor at evaluating our own play. It can be eye opening to have this kind of thing pointed out to us. It seems clear to me that at the time Donko posted it he had no clue that it was poorly played. Honestly, next time you get a hand that you find suspicious, post it in the strat forums to have your play evaluated. You may find it illuminating.

Again, I'm not ****ting on you Donko, but I think your post has brought an important issue to light.
I dont mind being the poster child for the time being. I am trying to reduce my ego and focus on the mechanics. In this case, I tried something different and it backfired. My bad play was not what I was trying to highlight, what I am saying is that it doesnt matter what I do this year, whether I am all in preflop with AA against j10 or any combination there of that has me heads up and in the lead, the cards have been coming for the other players. I know that no limit is not really that much about what your holding are, but more about what the other player is holding. I will post some better examples of this here using the hand converter when I have more time.

Your approach is very constructive. I do agree with you guys that there is a way to protect yourself from the elements by playing hands correctly. This would more than likely lower the amount of bad beats I am experiencing.
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:02 PM   #11021
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Wouldn't rake change this? Note, I am not suggesting his or anyone else's "I know how the system is rigged and I have nothing to show for it" methods have any merit, but I would imagine the rake could have a healthy impact on EV graphs depending on it's relative importance.

PA paying $100 in rake while winning or losing $1 million to Isuldur would not be noticed on an EV graph, but at the lower stakes a HU match could chew up a lot of the profits in rake.
Rake has no effect on an all-in equity vs. wins graph as those are independent of dollar amounts. If you are graphing money won, the rake must be adjusted in both numbers, or be shown as a separate line. Either way, you don't compare expectation without rake to winnings after rake. Obviously you compare apples to apples, or no one's graph would ever make sense. Almost always the graphs are plotted without deducting rake from winnings, but you can do it either way.

Regardless of that, your EV is a calculation of expected winnings before rake, and as I mentioned before, the sum of EV for all players in the hand is always zero. And the sum of the resulting offsets from EV for all players in the hand, is always zero before rake. I thought about putting that qualifier in my original post but thought it was understood, since you must always compare EV to winnings before rake.

Last edited by spadebidder; 12-10-2009 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:11 PM   #11022
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I dont mind being the poster child for the time being.
I don't think you qualify.

The people who earn the epithet: 'rigtard' (or 'idiot-boy') are those who willfully ignore any argument that tends to disprove their case and then wait a few days and repeat the same, old, tired, argument.

Plus, they accuse anyone who does not agree with them of being a shill.

Plus, they show their idiocy by, for example, suggesting that only depositing occasionally is a 'bad thing'.

I think you've got a long way to go.
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Old 12-10-2009, 04:35 PM   #11023
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

StephenMeares is definitely my favorite poster ITT. Not sure if he's a level or not, but he doesnt waste space with hand histories or facts or spam the board. Just semi-regular posts chalk full of concentrated ******.
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Old 12-10-2009, 05:38 PM   #11024
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I don't think you qualify.

The people who earn the epithet: 'rigtard' (or 'idiot-boy') are those who willfully ignore any argument that tends to disprove their case and then wait a few days and repeat the same, old, tired, argument.

Plus, they accuse anyone who does not agree with them of being a shill.

Plus, they show their idiocy by, for example, suggesting that only depositing occasionally is a 'bad thing'.

I think you've got a long way to go.
Thanks, I have stopped doing most of this you stated above. I do not want to let my emotions dictate the terms of how I am applying logic to life choices. I do fall off the wagon here and there though.
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:42 PM   #11025
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by solucky View Post
If you dont win enough simple dont play.

I also played alot between 2002 and 2007, but it was free money and a good hourly rate with no risk.

Todays poker is such boring and such a waste of time for me, for me the hourly rate is too low.

Rigged cards or not is not so important, only do you win or do you loose.
Excellent post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Currently about $800-1000 is available in EV per month in that still which is nice (though a lot of clicking).
Totally OT, but do you mind if I PM you about this? I've left sooo much money on the table over the last few years not getting my act together and taking advantages of these bonuses; I'm so out-of-date now I could use a nudge in the right direction.
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