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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.01%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:11 AM   #10851
tk1133
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Dude, I have a friend also,(not internet based) but from growing up, that is top 10 in the world, and a pocket 5's triple crown winner multiple times...Now I'm not braggging and I'm not trying to "out do you" w/ "friends," but that doesn't convince me that there is no need for regulation...(And he'd be pissed if he knew I was "tk1133") lol
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:13 AM   #10852
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
Would you like to quantify "over and over again" and "run like this" by posting some PT / HEM stats / complete hand histories? No? OK.
Hand histories are irrelevent...
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:58 AM   #10853
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Dude, I have a friend also,(not internet based) but from growing up, that is top 10 in the world, and a pocket 5's triple crown winner multiple times...Now I'm not braggging and I'm not trying to "out do you" w/ "friends," but that doesn't convince me that there is no need for regulation...(And he'd be pissed if he knew I was "tk1133") lol
When you're talking with your friend, and he calls tk1133 an idiot, do you stand up for your alter ego, or laugh loudly and agree in order to look cool for your "top 10" friend?
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:28 PM   #10854
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Dude, I have a friend also,(not internet based) but from growing up, that is top 10 in the world, and a pocket 5's triple crown winner multiple times...Now I'm not braggging and I'm not trying to "out do you" w/ "friends," ... (And he'd be pissed if he knew I was "tk1133")
WOW!

You have an uncle who's a congressman and who would disown you if he knew you'd been posting here.

And you have a top player as a childhood friend who would be upset if he knew who you were.

You sure know the top people and you sure like to live dangerously.

Or you are a legend in your own mind.

Anyway, you've given the game away now. All your 'friend' has to do is go through the people he knows and work out which is the biggest lame-brain and he's got you nailed.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:29 PM   #10855
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Hand histories are irrelevent...
You and hand histories have a lot in common, then.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:32 PM   #10856
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Dude, I have a friend also,(not internet based) but from growing up, that is top 10 in the world, and a pocket 5's triple crown winner multiple times...Now I'm not braggging and I'm not trying to "out do you" w/ "friends," but that doesn't convince me that there is no need for regulation...(And he'd be pissed if he knew I was "tk1133") lol
What do you mean by Top 10? Is he in the Top 10 for POY or OPOY or some other list?

I don't think anyone would argue that regulation in the USA would be a bad thing, (please remember that in a lot of other countries online poker is regulated). But mostly because it would make it a lot easier for Americans to deposit.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:34 PM   #10857
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Back on topic: FTP is rigged. Don't play there if you value your sanity.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:59 PM   #10858
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Back on topic: FTP is rigged. Don't play there if you value your sanity.
20-40% lesser profit for the sites, they must do something to compensate this
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:00 PM   #10859
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Of course it will happen over and over again.

Unless you are 100% favourite in any situation you will continue to lose a certain percentage of hands.

I can pretty much guarantee that this is nothing more than perfectly understandable selective memory on your part.

Every time you get beaten you think WHAT THE F*** - NOT AGAIN because you are convinced that something is wrong and it sticks in your mind.

When you win, on the other hand, it's nothing out of the ordinary as far as you are concerned so it makes a far smaller impression on your memory.

Try keeping a pad beside you when you play and note the outcome EVERY time you get some particular top hand.

If you do that honestly and diligently, by the time you've got 1000 observations I'll bet they come withing expected limits.

Meanwhile, concentrate on your game rather than worrying about a rigged RNG and you should find your 'luck' improves.
Im not going to say that you are wrong here because this very well may be the case. I do also know that if I am just concentrating on those very specifilc situations, that I am leaving a big piece of the picture out. After a certain amount of those hands I should start seeing some good luck. It is just not happening this year. Maybe I am just running very bad in those specific situation and only online...
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:06 PM   #10860
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
Would you like to quantify "over and over again" and "run like this" by posting some PT / HEM stats / complete hand histories? No? OK.
Almost the entire year I have been seeing this. I have been saving all of my hand histories to my hard drive because I cant get PT to work on my computer. As soon as I get something going that can import my hands, I will load them in and run some reports. I am not sure if there is a report to focus on the specific situations I am talking about, but I will check. I am sure you guys are going to say that my 100k hand sample is too small. The sample will be much smaller if I focus on specific all in situations.

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 12-05-2009 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:41 PM   #10861
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by solucky View Post
20-40% lesser profit for the sites, they must do something to compensate this
If they compensated for this by cheating players then their profits would not be down 20-40%.

Obviously you are making random stuff up, but try to use a logic flow to your made up stuff.

For instance if their profits were up 100% in a time where the industry matured and growth slowed then you could pretend that maybe that was because they were cheating players.

Riggedologists always seem to get things backwards.
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:19 PM   #10862
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
So when we established the FDA, was that due to paranoid conspiracy theorists?
No, but it also wasn't just based on "I feel like that farmer's pork is cheating me, it's obviously rigged if you're more than 5 years old".
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:18 PM   #10863
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

i have played alot on many sites, and no, no poker site is "rigged" after the official definition of randomness.. atleast after my opinion.

But i can indeed see a difference of randomness from site to site.. for example on FT the RNG is hard and brutal, with alot of big bad beats and stuff, but again, if you do a random-test on the site, its completely random.. and i abselotley believe that.

On other sites you got "boomswiched" and "doomswitched" now and then, where you 1 day cant win a hand, and the next win all and everything. again - if we do a random test on the site, its completely random.

The point is: I think the way to "a total 100% random site" after official definition of what random is, can vary.

I really wish there was a university or something who did a extremly thorough scientific test of randomness on several poker-RNGs. i think the result would have suprised, but again, i also think that it would conclude that it is 100% random after the definition of "random"
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:27 PM   #10864
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Scooter_ View Post
I really wish there was a university or something who did a extremly thorough scientific test of randomness on several poker-RNGs. i think the result would have suprised, but again, i also think that it would conclude that it is 100% random after the definition of "random"
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/

Quote:
PokerStars provided BMM with the source code for its RNG and shuffle, and software that PokerStars uses to protect the security of random numbers. [...] BMM found that:

[...]

* the software passed the Marsaglia Die Hard tests
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diehard_tests

Quote:
The diehard tests are a battery of statistical tests for measuring the quality of a set of random numbers. They were developed by George Marsaglia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Marsaglia

Quote:
He is Professor Emeritus of Pure and Applied Mathematics and Computer Science at Washington State University and Professor Emeritus of Statistics at Florida State University.
What the tests actually do is of course complete mumbo-jumbo to me but it seems to me that Mr Marsaglia would be on top of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter_ View Post
The point is: I think the way to "a total 100% random site" after official definition of what random is, can vary.
Not sure what you mean, 100% random is 100% random, no? Any modern (i.e. non-pseudo) RNG is 100% random.

Last edited by SwedishMedusa; 12-05-2009 at 05:31 PM. Reason: just rearranged stuff
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:11 PM   #10865
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
If they compensated for this by cheating players then their profits would not be down 20-40%.

Obviously you are making random stuff up, but try to use a logic flow to your made up stuff.

For instance if their profits were up 100% in a time where the industry matured and growth slowed then you could pretend that maybe that was because they were cheating players.

Riggedologists always seem to get things backwards.
Its no secret that many sites have a problem to increase there profit in the poker business. Marketing, TV adds, sponsored players eat a big part up to all profit. Dont be scary they dont rigg 99% of the games, but as long as noone show a analyse that proof its 100% random or 100% not random its a open discussion.

I dont play since it is crime here in germany, a few k poker winnings are not worth the risk to loose a 100K job.
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Old 12-06-2009, 03:58 AM   #10866
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Skokky View Post
Good to see more and more ppl are questioning if the rng can be manipulated to make mtt's finish faster.

Good to see more and more people are noticing that late in mtt's on stars bigger stacks are sucking out h/u all ins with atc dogs.

PokerStars Game #36292677486: Tournament #203144460, 1500FPP Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (40/80) - 2009/12/05 17:04:25 ET
Table '203144460 804' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: TheJames74 (1835 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: Skokky (3183 in chips)
Seat 3: Fuzzylinc (5760 in chips)
Seat 4: Amiks (6095 in chips)
Seat 5: 1marathonman (7495 in chips)
Seat 6: serenityjl (3555 in chips)
Seat 7: TDoodle (2160 in chips)
Seat 8: helmüüüt (5590 in chips)
Seat 9: ChubBub (5040 in chips)
Skokky: posts small blind 40
Fuzzylinc: posts big blind 80
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Skokky [Kd Kc]
Amiks: folds
1marathonman: folds
serenityjl: folds
TDoodle: folds
helmüüüt: raises 80 to 160
ChubBub: raises 240 to 400
TheJames74: folds
Skokky: calls 360
Fuzzylinc: folds
helmüüüt: calls 240
*** FLOP *** [2h Ts 7c]
Skokky: bets 2783 and is all-in
helmüüüt: folds
ChubBub: calls 2783
*** TURN *** [2h Ts 7c] [Qc]
*** RIVER *** [2h Ts 7c Qc] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Skokky: shows [Kd Kc] (a pair of Kings)
ChubBub: shows [Qd Qh] (three of a kind, Queens)
ChubBub collected 6846 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6846 | Rake 0
Board [2h Ts 7c Qc Jh]
Seat 1: TheJames74 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Skokky (small blind) showed [Kd Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 3: Fuzzylinc (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Amiks folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: 1marathonman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: serenityjl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: TDoodle folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: helmüüüt folded on the Flop
Seat 9: ChubBub showed [Qd Qh] and won (6846) with three of a kind, Queens
Yup, pretty standard...
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:37 AM   #10867
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
If everybody thought the way you did, then AP/UB never would of been exposed...
Wrong.
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Old 12-06-2009, 06:07 AM   #10868
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

cliff notes please
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Old 12-06-2009, 06:36 AM   #10869
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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cliff notes please
Many bad players excuse their lack of poker ability by imagining the deal is rigged.

Others try and disabuse them of that myth.

I think that just about sums up the thread.
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:10 AM   #10870
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Many bad players excuse their lack of poker ability by imagining the deal is rigged.

Others try and disabuse them of that myth.

I think that just about sums up the thread.
And add that the most frequent bad argument involves proving a negative, and argumentum ad ignorantiam. If nobody proves it isn't rigged (basically impossible to do) then it's rigged for sure. Instead of the assumption being that the deal is normal absent evidence to the contrary - which is how everything else in the entire fkng world works - online poker is special and works the other way around.
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:58 AM   #10871
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Was running fine at full tilt for many weeks when someone flicked a switch in the software. All of a sudden I'm losing hand after hand after hand where I'm heavy favorite. It was not just a bad streak, it was not just me having selective memory. It was total software manipulation.
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:12 PM   #10872
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
And add that the most frequent bad argument involves proving a negative, and argumentum ad ignorantiam. If nobody proves it isn't rigged (basically impossible to do) then it's rigged for sure. Instead of the assumption being that the deal is normal absent evidence to the contrary - which is how everything else in the entire fkng world works - online poker is special and works the other way around.
Yes, but only amongst idiots.

There may be a fair few people who wonder, but that's fair enough.

Only the terminally stupid will be certain that it's rigged without any evidence whatsoever. (See post above.)

----

I wonder how tk1133 and rounding4rent are, today.
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:13 PM   #10873
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by krakoose View Post
Was running fine at full tilt for many weeks when someone flicked a switch in the software. All of a sudden I'm losing hand after hand after hand where I'm heavy favorite. It was not just a bad streak, it was not just me having selective memory. It was total software manipulation.
I trust you have now stopped playing at FT on a permanent basis.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:58 PM   #10874
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by krakoose View Post
Was running fine at full tilt for many weeks
PTR and OPR say otherwise, unless you're not also "krakoose" on FTP.
Quote:
It was total software manipulation.
Why would FTP rig it against a .05/.1 PLH and >$3 tourney player?
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Old 12-06-2009, 03:05 PM   #10875
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Ya because there are so many other options for US citizens.
FTP is a complete joke.
The hands they deal play themselves.
Most of the regs I used to play with have been replaced with new account luckboxes.
It's amazing to me that FTP still exists after so many years of ****ing everybody over.
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