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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 891 9.04%
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:02 PM   #10826
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
If everybody thought the way you did, then AP/UB never would of been exposed...
Nobody has provided sufficient evidence that it's not "rigged" either. In my opinion if it were rigged, I don't think a multi billion dollar operation would leave any loose ends for public detection.
That being said, if there was nothing to hide there would be more transparency in their operations by the Poker sites, not that of avoiding US soil to avoid arrest from US Marshalls. Thus, there is no transperancy and like Howard Lederer stated, "It's all about trust." To me, that's simply not good enough. Somebody needs to be breathing down their necks making sure proper enforcements are made and customers are protected. The sad thing is, it should be the poker players....
I think you should probably go read the AP thread again (if you even read it at all) and see what happened. Someone actually presented evidence and it took off. If someone presented evidence of some sort of conspiracy to defraud players by a poker room then that would warrant a serious examination. But just being a paranoid maniac questioning everything just because "it's possible" doesn't make much sense.

Do you really go through life paranoid about everyone and every corporation that makes money? I agree with whoever posted above that people who think everyone is out to get them, usually are themselves pretty bad people and that is what fuels their paranoid suspicions.

For the record though so you can stop misrepresenting me, I don't believe it is impossible for a site to commit some sort of fraud, but I'm not going to accuse anyone of doing it without evidence.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:06 PM   #10827
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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go Bills tonight!
oh I root for bills too but I have stopped getting my hopes up since SB XXVII or so...
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:11 PM   #10828
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
I think you should probably go read the AP thread again (if you even read it at all) and see what happened. Someone actually presented evidence and it took off. If someone presented evidence of some sort of conspiracy to defraud players by a poker room then that would warrant a serious examination. But just being a paranoid maniac questioning everything just because "it's possible" doesn't make much sense.

Do you really go through life paranoid about everyone and every corporation that makes money? I agree with whoever posted above that people who think everyone is out to get them, usually are themselves pretty bad people and that is what fuels their paranoid suspicions.

For the record though so you can stop misrepresenting me, I don't believe it is impossible for a site to commit some sort of fraud, but I'm not going to accuse anyone of doing it without evidence.
I'm very aware and educated on the UB/AP affair and the threads made...But your not going to do anything to prevent abuse from happening until somebody "proves it." When the gap and oppertunity is that great?
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:19 PM   #10829
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I'm very aware and educated on the UB/AP affair and the threads made...But your not going to do anything to prevent abuse from happening until somebody "provides evidence." When the gap and oppertunity is that great?
FYP
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:22 PM   #10830
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Like R4R said you are on this kick that it's not humanly possible to "Rig" a poker room. What seperates your line of thinking from ours is that morals and ethics are preventing such a travsty to occur. If it were humanly possible to "Rig" an RNG, then I don't want some Indian Tribe in Canada, regulating and overseeing my ANY FINANCIAL activity in my Country!
You're definitely not being logical.

People who play carnival games and lose think those games are rigged. Let's take the one where you squirt the water gun at the target and the balloon blows up. A riggie will think (after losing), "Hey, I bet the water pressure is stronger on his gun" (the guy who won). So they switch to that gun next time. They lose again. This time they think, "I bet my balloon was a little bigger, therefore it had more room to stretch and wouldn't pop as quick." So they switch again. This time when they lose they think "I bet the target I was on had a stiffer spring and didn't blow the balloon up as fast as it should have." If they lose again they say "This ****ing **** sucker doesn't like me and just wants to take my money!"

The moral of the story: Play a different game. If you still lose, it's because you suck! End of story.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:34 PM   #10831
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I agree that it is very unlikely that the major sites are rigged.
It is very unlikely.

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I agree that it is very unlikely that the major sites are rigged. I however do not believe that there is any way to be conclusive on this.
There is. HH analysis.

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Just because a rigtard or a semi rigtard or a stats nit has not presented evidence, it doesnt mean that it is not happening.
Or that it is happening

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Just like the superuser scandals, there is always a point where the cheating is under the radar or within the radars range of detection. We dont know how many more situations were going on like this where the cheaters were being smarter and less blatant with their use of a superuser account.
Those were people using superuser accounts. Not sites using supersoftware or superhardware.

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
These scenarios on their own make the chance of sites being rigged alot more likely in my mind. When you find issues like these, they tend to be the tip of the iceberg not the exception.
Judging by how many incidents have been revealed so far, they are clearly the exception.

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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I dont think sifting through hand histories is going to cover the wide range of possible rigs and cheats that could be happening. We are not talking about a black and white subject here.
Yes it is and Yes it will. It's called math and mathematical proof.


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Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
I am sure that any large site that would be rigging their programming would be able to figure out how to do it in a way that would be virtually undetectable or they wouldnt do it at all because they are not going to risk their operation unless they have a solid approach and a big upswing in their bottom line.
Pitbull
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:44 PM   #10832
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
You're definitely not being logical.

People who play carnival games and lose think those games are rigged. Let's take the one where you squirt the water gun at the target and the balloon blows up. A riggie will think (after losing), "Hey, I bet the water pressure is stronger on his gun" (the guy who won). So they switch to that gun next time. They lose again. This time they think, "I bet my balloon was a little bigger, therefore it had more room to stretch and wouldn't pop as quick." So they switch again. This time when they lose they think "I bet the target I was on had a stiffer spring and didn't blow the balloon up as fast as it should have." If they lose again they say "This ****ing **** sucker doesn't like me and just wants to take my money!"

The moral of the story: Play a different game. If you still lose, it's because you suck! End of story.
Ok, your an idiot...

Your comparing carvnival games w/ online poker? Are you insane?

So what your saying that you don't want your banking system regulated and/or it doesn't need regulations?

Would you shoot dice w/ me over the phone? We can play for online poker funds...

Last edited by tk1133; 12-04-2009 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:49 PM   #10833
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
I think you should probably go read the AP thread again (if you even read it at all) and see what happened. Someone actually presented evidence and it took off. If someone presented evidence of some sort of conspiracy to defraud players by a poker room then that would warrant a serious examination. But just being a paranoid maniac questioning everything just because "it's possible" doesn't make much sense.

Do you really go through life paranoid about everyone and every corporation that makes money? I agree with whoever posted above that people who think everyone is out to get them, usually are themselves pretty bad people and that is what fuels their paranoid suspicions.

For the record though so you can stop misrepresenting me, I don't believe it is impossible for a site to commit some sort of fraud, but I'm not going to accuse anyone of doing it without evidence.
Ok, it's a good thing you don't run our Country, or anything important for that matter...

Last edited by tk1133; 12-04-2009 at 06:56 PM. Reason: I should of qualified my audience better...
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:57 PM   #10834
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by LVGambler View Post
It is very unlikely.



There is. HH analysis.



Or that it is happening



Those were people using superuser accounts. Not sites using supersoftware or superhardware.



Judging by how many incidents have been revealed so far, they are clearly the exception.



Yes it is and Yes it will. It's called math and mathematical proof.




Pitbull

Sure, they were using superuser accounts, so why do those accounts even exist? When you play in the brick and mortar, the floor manager does not have access to your hole cards, they can watch what is going on without seeing everyones hands until after they are turned up. There is hand history tracking too, so why do they need to see everyones hand in realtime? why not check a few hands later in the hand histories?

Also, there are ways to manipulate the math. I have been in situations where big pairs come and everyone folds to my blind or my normal raise. This shows a win for that hand, but then deep in tournaments, when I am all in, I seem to lose more hands than normal with these same big hands when my tournament life is at stake. Sure, this is more than likely just bad luck, but on the other hand, it could just be the other part of the manipulation so that my big pair report looks good, but my outcome is still severly affected. It is either bad luck (very likely) or program manipulation (less likely but still possible). In this situation, there is no way you could find anything wrong with the numbers, so then it is just chalked up to variance.
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:21 PM   #10835
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Ok, it's a good thing you don't run our Country, or anything important for that matter...
Most countries don't make accusations without having evidence. I'd hate to live in a country that's leaders were paranoid conspiracy theorists such as yourself.
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:22 PM   #10836
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Ok, your an idiot...

Your comparing carvnival games w/ online poker? Are you insane?

So what your saying that you don't want your banking system regulated and/or it doesn't need regulations?

Would you shoot dice w/ me over the phone? We can play for online poker funds...
When you are calling someone an idiot, at least try to spell your insults properly.
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:28 PM   #10837
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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When you are calling someone an idiot, at least try to spell your insults properly.
Dammit I've been working on that too..."You're" and "Your" "their,"there" and "they're"... I take full responsibility Mr. Fett
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:32 PM   #10838
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Most countries don't make accusations without having evidence. I'd hate to live in a country that's leaders were paranoid conspiracy theorists such as yourself.
Yes they do...lol. Pre-emtive measures...ever wondered why the phrase, "National Security" is used so vaguely...

So when we established the FDA, was that due to paranoid conspiracy theorists?

Regulating our Banking systems? Paranoid?
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:44 PM   #10839
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Dammit I've been working on that too..."You're" and "Your" "their,"there" and "they're"... I take full responsibility Mr. Fett
I don't usually nitpick stuff like that, but it's pretty important when you are calling someone else an idiot.

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Yes they do...lol. Pre-emtive measures...ever wondered why the phrase, "National Security" is used so vaguely...

So when we established the FDA, was that due to paranoid conspiracy theorists?

Regulating our Banking systems? Paranoid?
They take protective measures against things that evidence suggests they should. But so is online gaming. As much as you don't want to admit it there are regulatory committees outside of the USA that ensure a fair game. At the same time we can analyze hand histories to make sure the games are fair. So far, so good. Like I said if you have any evidence to present that a game/site is unfair feel free to post it.
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Old 12-04-2009, 07:45 PM   #10840
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Dammit I've been working on that too..."You're" and "Your" "their,"there" and "they're"... I take full responsibility Mr. Fett
know whey, reel poah-cur plae-urhs doant kneed speling addvise.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:09 PM   #10841
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Ok, your an idiot...

Your comparing carvnival games w/ online poker? Are you insane?

So what your saying that you don't want your banking system regulated and/or it doesn't need regulations?

Would you shoot dice w/ me over the phone? We can play for online poker funds...
You have poor reading comprehension. I was comparing the upset losers (who are paranoid to think the games are rigged.. yet they still play ).



Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Sure, they were using superuser accounts, so why do those accounts even exist? When you play in the brick and mortar, the floor manager does not have access to your hole cards, they can watch what is going on without seeing everyones hands until after they are turned up. There is hand history tracking too, so why do they need to see everyones hand in realtime? why not check a few hands later in the hand histories?

Also, there are ways to manipulate the math. I have been in situations where big pairs come and everyone folds to my blind or my normal raise. This shows a win for that hand, but then deep in tournaments, when I am all in, I seem to lose more hands than normal with these same big hands when my tournament life is at stake. Sure, this is more than likely just bad luck, but on the other hand, it could just be the other part of the manipulation so that my big pair report looks good, but my outcome is still severly affected. It is either bad luck (very likely) or program manipulation (less likely but still possible). In this situation, there is no way you could find anything wrong with the numbers, so then it is just chalked up to variance.
Well, when you had a big pair and made a normal raise and everyone folded, that hand doesn't really count. The hands that count are the ones that are played and shown. Hand histories don't show cards that don't belong in a showdown.

Believe me bro. I know where you coming from. I lose my a$$ online. I've said it before. And I also admitted that it's my fault. But that was only after a friend, who's been successful online for years now, showed me how bad I was playing. So how and why do I do so good (usually) playing live? I've been doing well for myself for what's going on 3 years. You know why? It's a different game altogether. It's not that live poker isn't rigged and online is. Sht, I suspect people of collusion all the time. You see guys playing soft against some people, making weird faces and hand gestures n sht. But unless I have proof I just stay aware when I'm up against them in a hand. But online is a much harder game. People just play faster and much better (than your average live reg). The people I play are tourists and drunk idiots who stumble into a card room to chase what they just lost in the casino. I pick on weaker players. How do you do that online? Well, one way is to hit the micros where most of the fish are. Or maybe the super cheap sit n go's. But once you go up into the low stakes you're playing against experienced players. They have a lot of experience. They've seen all the moves. They are more aware of playing styles. You want to do better? Raise like crazy and play like a nit! Then just vary your play a little with your card range and keep the pots small against the bad players to milk them for what you can. But if you're playing against better players than you.. Raisy Daisy like you're crazy! Get the better players to lay down more of their hands. If not, they'll outplay you over and over again. Trust me. All that AND get into using Poker Tracker and all that sht. If people have info on you.. you need it on them. With experience you can use that info you get to your advantage. But if you think poker is about waiting for good cards and "getting it in good".. but you're just unlucky when you get sucked out on.. you're really missing the big picture.

Poker is about consuming [amounts in] BB's while losing the least amount possible in marginal situations. You got it good.. extract. You don't.. push.. or retract. Fancy moves only make for fancy losing when you're not a great player. I beat up on suckers all day when I play. But every once in a while.. a good player gets in the game that I didn't pick up on fast enough.. and then I'm, all of a sudden, the sucker. Online.. I'm (more than not) that sucker.

Don't be a sucker! It sucks! But don't blame random, stupid, unprovable sht for your losing or bad luck UNLESS you have PROOF you're a great player AND you have PROOF the site's ****ing you.

I meant all of that sincerely, too. Losing sucks. But being in denial is much worse.

| /.

Last edited by LVGambler; 12-04-2009 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:22 PM   #10842
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Also, there are ways to manipulate the math. I have been in situations where big pairs come and everyone folds to my blind or my normal raise. This shows a win for that hand, but then deep in tournaments, when I am all in, I seem to lose more hands than normal with these same big hands when my tournament life is at stake. Sure, this is more than likely just bad luck, but on the other hand, it could just be the other part of the manipulation so that my big pair report looks good, but my outcome is still severly affected. It is either bad luck (very likely) or program manipulation (less likely but still possible). In this situation, there is no way you could find anything wrong with the numbers, so then it is just chalked up to variance.
I'm not a tournament player but don't people tend to play looser later in tournaments so you are more likely to suffer a bad beat deep in a tournament rather than early?
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:32 PM   #10843
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I'm not a tournament player but don't people tend to play looser later in tournaments so you are more likely to suffer a bad beat deep in a tournament rather than early?
They tend to raise with a wider range of hands to take down the dead money. I have seen some pretty ridiculous calls also. For the most part, the players get better, most of the bad players are usually out of the tournament and you are usually able to play more poker instead of cards at that time. That may also explain why k10 os calls when I have pushed all in with QQ. The player might be thinking that I cant possibly have a hand after I have raised for the third time during the current orbit.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:39 PM   #10844
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I'm not a tournament player but don't people tend to play looser later in tournaments so you are more likely to suffer a bad beat deep in a tournament rather than early?
You also remember the ones that eliminate you, which tend to be later in the tourney than your other hands.

And looking at what happens late in tourneys is heavily skewed by survivorship bias. You rarely win a tournament without being all in several times. Go in with a 70% favorite 3 times and your chance to come out alive is 34%. Four times, 24%. And for some reason it's always the last all-in that you lose. 100% of the time. Funny how that works.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:43 PM   #10845
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You have poor reading comprehension. I was comparing the upset losers (who are paranoid to think the games are rigged.. yet they still play ).





Well, when you had a big pair and made a normal raise and everyone folded, that hand doesn't really count. The hands that count are the ones that are played and shown. Hand histories don't show cards that don't belong in a showdown.

Believe me bro. I know where you coming from. I lose my a$$ online. I've said it before. And I also admitted that it's my fault. But that was only after a friend, who's been successful online for years now, showed me how bad I was playing. So how and why do I do so good (usually) playing live? I've been doing well for myself for what's going on 3 years. You know why? It's a different game altogether. It's not that live poker isn't rigged and online is. Sht, I suspect people of collusion all the time. You see guys playing soft against some people, making weird faces and hand gestures n sht. But unless I have proof I just stay aware when I'm up against them in a hand. But online is a much harder game. People just play faster and much better (than your average live reg). The people I play are tourists and drunk idiots who stumble into a card room to chase what they just lost in the casino. I pick on weaker players. How do you do that online? Well, one way is to hit the micros where most of the fish are. Or maybe the super cheap sit n go's. But once you go up into the low stakes you're playing against experienced players. They have a lot of experience. They've seen all the moves. They are more aware of playing styles. You want to do better? Raise like crazy and play like a nit! Then just vary your play a little with your card range and keep the pots small against the bad players to milk them for what you can. But if you're playing against better players than you.. Raisy Daisy like you're crazy! Get the better players to lay down more of their hands. If not, they'll outplay you over and over again. Trust me. All that AND get into using Poker Tracker and all that sht. If people have info on you.. you need it on them. With experience you can use that info you get to your advantage. But if you think poker is about waiting for good cards and "getting it in good".. but you're just unlucky when you get sucked out on.. you're really missing the big picture.

Poker is about consuming [amounts in] BB's while losing the least amount possible in marginal situations. You got it good.. extract. You don't.. push.. or retract. Fancy moves only make for fancy losing when you're not a great player. I beat up on suckers all day when I play. But every once in a while.. a good player gets in the game that I didn't pick up on fast enough.. and then I'm, all of a sudden, the sucker. Online.. I'm (more than not) that sucker.

Don't be a sucker! It sucks! But don't blame random, stupid, unprovable sht for your losing or bad luck UNLESS you have PROOF you're a great player AND you have PROOF the site's ****ing you.

I meant all of that sincerely, too. Losing sucks. But being in denial is much worse.

| /.
This is good stuff and thank you for that. You are right, limiting your exposure to tournament life threatening situations is key to getting deep, but there is always a few times before the final table that you are going to be all in unless you are the monster stack. If you dont run well in situations like these, you are going to be very frustrated. Some players gamble early to build a big stack. I do both depending upon my mood, the players and the tournament size.

I do have over 300+ final tables live and online in the 6 years I have been playing, but I do agree that I have a lot more room for growth. I dont think that has anything to do with the fact that when I look at my hand histories and see how I am busting out, that I am running horribly in those sections of tournaments. I dont have anywhere near the hand history to prove something is wrong at that point in time, but I am collecting more and will continue to be looking at them. If something doesnt look right, I am going to post the results here on 2+2.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:50 PM   #10846
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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You also remember the ones that eliminate you, which tend to be later in the tourney than your other hands.

And looking at what happens late in tourneys is heavily skewed by survivorship bias. You rarely win a tournament without being all in several times. Go in with a 70% favorite 3 times and your chance to come out alive is 34%. Four times, 24%. And for some reason it's always the last all-in that you lose. 100% of the time. Funny how that works.
That is very true. But there have been some tournaments where I had not gone all in the whole tournament until late. I would play small ball, pick on shorter stacks, work from later position. I would get late into the tournament with a mid sized stack and decide that it was time to gamble with a big pair against the right player. Sure enough, KK vs AK...I am out. Over and Over again. I sure do remember these situations because I was careful to pick my way through the wreckage only to finally get all in with the best hand and get busted deep again? Sorry, that just makes me wonder when it happens over and over again. I start thinking, are we just playing bingo and the cards dont matter? It is hard to run like this and not wonder if the programming is malfunctioning or rigged.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:51 PM   #10847
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

full of ****** in that thread
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Old 12-04-2009, 09:05 PM   #10848
DonkoTheClown
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman808 View Post
full of ****** in that thread
Welcome to the club, you are qualified for a gold membership...
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Old 12-05-2009, 10:29 AM   #10849
Bingo_Boy
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Sure enough, KK vs AK...I am out. Over and Over again. I sure do remember these situations because I was careful to pick my way through the wreckage only to finally get all in with the best hand and get busted deep again? Sorry, that just makes me wonder when it happens over and over again. I start thinking, are we just playing bingo and the cards dont matter? It is hard to run like this and not wonder if the programming is malfunctioning or rigged.
Would you like to quantify "over and over again" and "run like this" by posting some PT / HEM stats / complete hand histories? No? OK.
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Old 12-05-2009, 10:45 AM   #10850
qpw
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkoTheClown View Post
Sure enough, KK vs AK...I am out. Over and Over again.
Of course it will happen over and over again.

Unless you are 100% favourite in any situation you will continue to lose a certain percentage of hands.

I can pretty much guarantee that this is nothing more than perfectly understandable selective memory on your part.

Every time you get beaten you think WHAT THE F*** - NOT AGAIN because you are convinced that something is wrong and it sticks in your mind.

When you win, on the other hand, it's nothing out of the ordinary as far as you are concerned so it makes a far smaller impression on your memory.

Try keeping a pad beside you when you play and note the outcome EVERY time you get some particular top hand.

If you do that honestly and diligently, by the time you've got 1000 observations I'll bet they come withing expected limits.

Meanwhile, concentrate on your game rather than worrying about a rigged RNG and you should find your 'luck' improves.
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