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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:47 AM   #10601
toltec444
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

By the way, european football is rigged.

Who rigged then?

Gamblers!!!!!!!!


But online poker is the most trustfull bussiness in the world.

Know what, you that think that online poker is not rigged believe in santa claus, coelho da pascoa, e lizard people, you are so paranoid.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:51 AM   #10602
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

And you that ask proof from people that dont understand nothing about statistic and computers are just ******s.

Imagine if the money from your bank account is suddenly gone and the bank demands you to prove how someone could hack their software and rob the money, thats just ******.

People tat believe online poker is not rigged believe in santa claus and lizard people.
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Old 11-21-2009, 05:08 AM   #10603
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by batair View Post
Know there is a whole lot of players out there that dont play online because they think it is rigged or illegal. So to say there is no reason for better PR about the integrity and legality of OLP is false imo.
I agree with the first part. The question is, what will convince them? There are so many people out there who will always believe it is rigged, no matter what. If the RNG has been audited, then the auditing firm is in on it. Or they use another software than the one that was audited. Or they believe that the game can be rigged in away that would not be detected by an audit/statistical analysis. "And what about super user house bots who can see my cards/which cards to come sitting at each table". And so on.

How many of those who don't want to play online can be converted at what cost? If the rigtards in this thread are representative of those who don't want to play online because they are concerned about the games being rigged, then it is clear that *nothing* will convince them that the games are safe.

A lot of people also don't know what would actually be required in order to know the games are safe so they would ask sites for bizarre ways of proving their deal is legit (I recall someone in this thread that wanted auditors to come in and physically stand and watch the RNG software while it ran...)
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Old 11-21-2009, 05:23 AM   #10604
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
Imagine if the money from your bank account is suddenly gone and the bank demands you to prove how someone could hack their software and rob the money, thats just ******.
Umm...

If the money in your bank account is suddenly gone, you could easily prove this with just your bank statements. You don't need to be an expert on software security, you just need to figure out how to log into your internet bank and where the print screen button is, or how to find your local bank office and ask a clerk for your bank statements.

If you believe that your Aces are being cracked 90% of the time, all you need to do is to request your hand histories and count manually for yourself. You will find that your perception is wrong. You don't need to be some sort of stat freak for that or even have a poker stat software.

The biggest problem isn't that the rigtards don't understand statistics, the biggest problem is that they continuously make ******ed claims without backing it up using data that is already easily available to them.

The rigtards are not being asked to prove that the game is rigged, they are being asked to back their claims with anything more substantial (i.e. hard data of a significant sample size) than cherry picked hand histories, "I know it's rigged, I just know it", or various "it *could* certainly be rigged this way or that way" statements, referring to human nature (greed) or saying "anyone who doesn't believe it's rigged is ******ed" (if it's so freaking obvious it would be super easy for any intelligent person to come up with some suspicious looking stats) etc.

That's it, *some* hard data to back up your claims is all that is being asked for.
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:01 AM   #10605
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
Umm...

If the money in your bank account is suddenly gone, you could easily prove this with just your bank statements. You don't need to be an expert on software security, you just need to figure out how to log into your internet bank and where the print screen button is, or how to find your local bank office and ask a clerk for your bank statements.

If you believe that your Aces are being cracked 90% of the time, all you need to do is to request your hand histories and count manually for yourself. You will find that your perception is wrong. You don't need to be some sort of stat freak for that or even have a poker stat software.

The biggest problem isn't that the rigtards don't understand statistics, the biggest problem is that they continuously make ******ed claims without backing it up using data that is already easily available to them.

The rigtards are not being asked to prove that the game is rigged, they are being asked to back their claims with anything more substantial (i.e. hard data of a significant sample size) than cherry picked hand histories, "I know it's rigged, I just know it", or various "it *could* certainly be rigged this way or that way" statements, referring to human nature (greed) or saying "anyone who doesn't believe it's rigged is ******ed" (if it's so freaking obvious it would be super easy for any intelligent person to come up with some suspicious looking stats) etc.

That's it, *some* hard data to back up your claims is all that is being asked for.
I dont need hard data to prove anything, I KNOW ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED.

If care about it find the hard data yourself ******!!!!!!


Time will tell, see the football case.
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:01 AM   #10606
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Any five year old idiot that plays online knows its rigged.

And Im not a loser player. And Im not wanting to stopplaying online, but it is rigged.

You have to play 5 time more hands against a inferior player to win his money than in live fair poker.


Anyone that plays live knows it.

Last edited by toltec444; 11-21-2009 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:06 AM   #10607
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
Any five year old idiot that plays online knows its rigged.
That might be the first thing you've said that I can agree with.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:12 AM   #10608
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Thats a interesting point that people dont understand, if the frequency of badbeats online and live are the same
I think you don't understand that there is no reason that statement should be true. The reasons why it isn't always true have been given in this thread many times. Playing style is not the same. To take one extreme example, if I call you to the river everytime you play a hand, I will suck out on you much more often as a proportion of hands, than if I play a reasonable strategy. But I will also lose more money over time. If I always get my money in with the best hand, I will never suck out on anyone, ever. Low online stakes, lots of novice players, and aggressive play encouraged by anonymity, all contribute to the difference. Even if your statement were true, since you would see more in the same amount of playing time, memory plays tricks. The reality is a combination of both. The reality is also that equity vs win statistics show that they approach equality in online play over the long run, just as they should, and just as it is live.

Last edited by spadebidder; 11-21-2009 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 09:56 AM   #10609
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I think you don't understand that there is no reason that statement should be true. The reasons why it isn't always true have been given in this thread many times. Playing style is not the same. To take one extreme example, if I call you to the river everytime you play a hand, I will suck out on you much more often as a proportion of hands, than if I play a reasonable strategy. But I will also lose more money over time. If I always get my money in with the best hand, I will never suck out on anyone, ever. Low online stakes, lots of novice players, and aggressive play encouraged by anonymity, all contribute to the difference. Even if your statement were true, since you would see more in the same amount of playing time, memory plays tricks. The reality is a combination of both. The reality is also that equity vs win statistics show that they approach equality in online play over the long run, just as they should, and just as it is live.
Actually, I am going to disagree with you a bit here though I agree with part of what you are saying.

The playing styles are quite different though not really in the manner you are talking about, and these differences do cause a lot more "bad beats" online compared to live.

If you look over this monstrosity of a thread and find the few hands that riggedologists post they are nearly all from very low buy in tournaments or even freerolls. All ins where bad players got lucky in a $1 tournament.

The reality is that there is never going to be a "live" equivalent to a $1 tournament because that is totally impractical. You will see a lot more weird hands played for full stacks in these tournaments so when your aces lost to J6 suited all in for 100 BB each it stands out and seems like that rarely happens live which is correct.

Add in the sheer number of hands played online vs live and you have a formula where a ton of bad beats take place at the stakes riggedologists play, because a lot more situations take place that can cause the bad beats.

Of course if they actually analyzed their data they would see long term the math pretty much works out, but they stop the process at what they see and feel. Much like that tolec guy proudly claims - they don't do math cuz they knowz itz riggedzors cuz they seez and feelz itz lol soccorz riggzors mafiaz gamblorz.
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Old 11-21-2009, 10:47 AM   #10610
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I haven't played a hand in about 2 months now and it feels so good to rid myself of the constant rigged BS that every single site will put you through.
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Old 11-21-2009, 11:12 AM   #10611
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I haven't played a hand in about 2 months now and it feels so good to rid myself of the constant rigged BS that every single site will put you through.
Congratulations on finally making the correct choice that a non-casual losing micro stakes who cannot improve his game should make. Even if deep rationalization got you there, you should indeed pat yourself on the back.

Hopefully other micro stakes fish will not make the same decision.
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Old 11-21-2009, 03:31 PM   #10612
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I don't necessarily disagree with the final sentence in your post about PR, but your premises are just wrong.
I play a lot live, and I have maybe heard rigged mentioned once, ever, outside the context of joking. And it was by someone who has played online. So not everyone.
We talk to different people then. I know a lot of part time rec players who think it is. This is because it is easier for the less talented players to win live and when they cant do the same online it becomes rigged. If sites did a better job of showing the RNG is true i think it would help and they might accept they just suck and they might try to learn to get better instead of quitting online play.

Quote:
People tend to think that others believe as they do, and they are often wrong. I'm sure psychologists have a name for that.
If you mean me, i dont think it is rigged.

Quote:
As for the illegal part, almost everyone knows that nobody has ever been arrested for playing online poker. Yes, many people think it might be illegal, and in some states it technically is, but that isn't why they aren't playing online. They know that even if it is illegal, it's akin to jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk laws, that no one is ever charged with breaking. But that's beside the point.
I know a few who wont play because they think it illegal or they think it is to gray of an area to take a chance with their bank closing their account. Again we must be taking to different people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
I agree with the first part. The question is, what will convince them? There are so many people out there who will always believe it is rigged, no matter what. If the RNG has been audited, then the auditing firm is in on it. Or they use another software than the one that was audited. Or they believe that the game can be rigged in away that would not be detected by an audit/statistical analysis. "And what about super user house bots who can see my cards/which cards to come sitting at each table". And so on.

How many of those who don't want to play online can be converted at what cost? If the rigtards in this thread are representative of those who don't want to play online because they are concerned about the games being rigged, then it is clear that *nothing* will convince them that the games are safe.

A lot of people also don't know what would actually be required in order to know the games are safe so they would ask sites for bizarre ways of proving their deal is legit (I recall someone in this thread that wanted auditors to come in and physically stand and watch the RNG software while it ran...)
Your probably mostly right with all of that. But, even though i wold rather not have it, i do think US regulation would ease some peoples fears (not all). Or even other prominent nations, like British regulation based in England. Along with regular accessible audits.

Look im not saying everyone who thinks it's rigged or illegal would start playing tomorrow if sites did a better job of showing the game isn't rigged and its legal. But the more players the better even if it's just a few.

Last edited by batair; 11-21-2009 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 05:51 PM   #10613
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I find this thread weird because if one site is rigged that doesn't mean all of them are. there's obviously a pretty good chance that the lesser reputable sites are rigged to some extent(pitbull comes to mind), but the more reputable ones aren't.

"Is online poker rigged?" is a silly question since all sites/networks aren't equal in any shape or form.
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Old 11-22-2009, 02:50 AM   #10614
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

The inhibition in live play is to fold, not to call. In live play people tend to think they are going to be thought chicken if they fold, so in live game people do a lot more idiotic moves than in online where he can just fold and think "OK there no one here to call me weak".


In live games people tend to get bored and play more lag than they ususally do when multitabling online.

So, the theory that the style of online players makes badbeat more probable is wrong.
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Old 11-22-2009, 04:49 AM   #10615
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

What I'm wondering is if any of the people who think poker is rigged are winning players? It just seems to me most of those who say poker is rigged are losers who need refuge for their poor decisions.
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:26 AM   #10616
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-

Last edited by SMpro; 11-22-2009 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:15 AM   #10617
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Im a winning player...my roi is over 25%...
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:33 AM   #10618
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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What I'm wondering is if any of the people who think poker is rigged are winning players? It just seems to me most of those who say poker is rigged are losers who need refuge for their poor decisions.

Most riggedologists are losing players, and all are basically micro stakes players if that. Most of the hand histories they post (when they post any) are from $1-3 tournaments or 20 FPP tournaments. Some are probably play money hands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
The inhibition in live play is to fold, not to call. In live play people tend to think they are going to be thought chicken if they fold, so in live game people do a lot more idiotic moves than in online where he can just fold and think "OK there no one here to call me weak".


In live games people tend to get bored and play more lag than they ususally do when multitabling online.

So, the theory that the style of online players makes badbeat more probable is wrong.
The game amounts are completely different. Sure, people can get a bit bored live due to the slow nature, but the flip side is online you can always just start another freeroll or $1 tournament if you lose the one you are in. The stakes are so trivial that you will see completely silly play because many just do not care much so you will see a lot more weird bad beats like J6 beating AA that on the surface make no sense, and J6 beating AA stands out a lot more than JJ beating KK.

Look at the WSOP final table this year, tons of bad beats, was that rigged?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tvstealer View Post
I find this thread weird because if one site is rigged that doesn't mean all of them are. there's obviously a pretty good chance that the lesser reputable sites are rigged to some extent(pitbull comes to mind), but the more reputable ones aren't.

"Is online poker rigged?" is a silly question since all sites/networks aren't equal in any shape or form.
Superusers if they exist has nothing to do with whether the deal itself is random (ie: rigged). Also, most small rogue sites will just not pay cashouts then vanish if they want to steal everyone's money.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:09 PM   #10619
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Superusers if they exist has nothing to do with whether the deal itself is random (ie: rigged). Also, most small rogue sites will just not pay cashouts then vanish if they want to steal everyone's money.
Superusers kind of show the RNG isn't rigged on the sites they were found on. Why would a site need superusers to skim money if the had the RNG doing it. And why would superusers need to see whole cards if the site can just fix what cards come to their "house players".

Last edited by batair; 11-22-2009 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:12 PM   #10620
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Who should scare fish away ? Rigged means not that poker is not beatable, noone can expect that a winning player, pro, affilate tell or proof that poker is rigged.

A rigging to increase the rake is not necessary at high stakes, the effect is bigger at micro low limits ( more tables, more games, rake under the 3$ Cap ).

Myself dont play significant stakes any more...better opponents, poor rewards or more MADE games who know. I only know that i make more / hour with lesser work in other fields.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:46 PM   #10621
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Who should scare fish away ? Rigged means not that poker is not beatable, noone can expect that a winning player, pro, affilate tell or proof that poker is rigged.

A rigging to increase the rake is not necessary at high stakes, the effect is bigger at micro low limits ( more tables, more games, rake under the 3$ Cap ).

Myself dont play significant stakes any more...better opponents, poor rewards or more MADE games who know. I only know that i make more / hour with lesser work in other fields.
None of this makes much sense (I realize English is not your first language which is the reason).

"Action flops" would be noticed (by actual statistical analysis) and they do not even make the site more money as action hands take a lot longer. If a site was really going to rig it they would use non action hands that end with a flop bet to earn rake and move onto the next hand quicker.

Anyway, you never played to win at the game, you just folded for net wins after bonuses and rakeback until that was no longer viable so riggedness had nothing to do with what your "game" used to be. You treated poker as a casino bonus whoring approach which was perfectly valid when possible (though destructive to the games and the bonuses eventually), but that simply could not last forever.
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Old 11-22-2009, 02:54 PM   #10622
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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None of this makes much sense (I realize English is not your first language which is the reason).

"Action flops" would be noticed (by actual statistical analysis) and they do not even make the site more money as action hands take a lot longer. If a site was really going to rig it they would use non action hands that end with a flop bet to earn rake and move onto the next hand quicker.

Anyway, you never played to win at the game, you just folded for net wins after bonuses and rakeback until that was no longer viable so riggedness had nothing to do with what your "game" used to be. You treated poker as a casino bonus whoring approach which was perfectly valid when possible (though destructive to the games and the bonuses eventually), but that simply could not last forever.
I agree that abuse bonus offers was my prefered way. As a game for fun and entertainment i prefer backgammon . But i played also millions of hands during
bonus whoring...and i have the " feeling " shuffling is not the same. Sure in todays poker the game is also not the same more lags = more people that flop a straight with 96 suited.

But i dont agree with the number of games, better one game with a 30$ Pot than 3-4 games with a 3 $ Pot.
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:07 PM   #10623
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I agree that abuse bonus offers was my prefered way. As a game for fun and entertainment i prefer backgammon . But i played also millions of hands during
bonus whoring...and i have the " feeling " shuffling is not the same. Sure in todays poker the game is also not the same more lags = more people that flop a straight with 96 suited.
You have feelings other people have databases and do statistical studies. By your own admission you never even played the game in terms of learning how to actually play as well, so why would your feelings be more powerful than real math?


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ut i dont agree with the number of games, better one game with a 30$ Pot than 3-4 games with a 3 $ Pot.
I know you don't agree but you also have no idea what would be needed to make this happen without being caught. You also ignore the risks of it if it was being done. Basically you are just saying your feelings again which is fine but it is not actually proof of anything other than how you feel.
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:21 PM   #10624
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Online poker is def rigged

my AA lost to 77
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:51 PM   #10625
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I am not trying to express an opion as to whether online poker is rigged or not, but I have quit playing all together. All I know is the last 12 times I had ak on fulltilt poker I was up against kk all in preflop and the last time I had ak vs kk the very next hand was dealt kk and was up against aa. Something is not right with online poker and now I refuse to play. It's the casino or nothing.

Thanks for your time.
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