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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:17 PM   #10576
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Re: Full Tilt cold streaks / hot streaks ---handicap?

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Originally Posted by PJ222 View Post
A
I just read the action flop theory which very closely ties into my results. It basically is handicapping.
Why don't you post exactly how it ties in in the thread? Pretty sure everyone is interested in seeing proof of the action flop theory.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:42 PM   #10577
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Re: Full Tilt cold streaks / hot streaks ---handicap?

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Why don't you post exactly how it ties in in the thread? Pretty sure everyone is interested in seeing proof of the action flop theory.
He's starting to look like a troll instead of just someone confused.

The various action flops theories have pretty much been shown to be the least likely way that any site might manipulate anything to increase revenue, because it just wouldn't work. I won't repeat the arguments.

PJ - I'll be publishing some stats on over half a billion flops soon, and then the truth of the action flop theory will be known conclusively for at least one major site (until I do the others).
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:11 PM   #10578
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Re: Full Tilt cold streaks / hot streaks ---handicap?

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I know for a fact that some people are paid to "Promote" and "debunk".
I'd be quite interested in hearing about your evidence of this. If you know it "for a fact", then you obviously have some. Right?
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:24 PM   #10579
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
The various action flops theories have pretty much been shown to be the least likely way that any site might manipulate anything to increase revenue, because it just wouldn't work. I won't repeat the arguments.
You know, I know you don't want to bring it up, but all the times I've heard the term "action flop" I've never really heard an example. Wouldn't the ultimate action flop be something dry like J72r that ensures KK stacks off into AA or something?
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I'd be quite interested in hearing about your evidence of this. If you know it "for a fact", then you obviously have some. Right?
Of course he does, but you'll have to put up $25,000 and meet him in person where his lawyer and a notary will be present to make sure you don't go blabbing his facts everywhere.
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:12 PM   #10580
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I would like to make a suggestion. If you guys are so set on making prop bets and wagers on proof and evidence. Why don't you ante up and offer a general reward for "proof that online poker is rigged?" Whether it be by certain sites or independant hackers...
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:35 PM   #10581
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I would like to make a suggestion. If you guys are so set on making prop bets and wagers on proof and evidence. Why don't you ante up and offer a general reward for "proof that online poker is rigged?" Whether it be by certain sites or independant hackers...
Well, I already wager a heap of money on PokerStars not being rigged: if it wasn't legit, I imagine I'd lose my job.
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:37 PM   #10582
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Well, I already wager a heap of money on PokerStars not being rigged: if it wasn't legit, I imagine I'd lose my job.
I've offered money in this thread several times to just show a workable scheme backed up by math, without even proving that it actually exists.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:19 PM   #10583
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Yeah, I'm not sensing that the lack of a monetary reward is what has kept the onslaught of actual verifiable proof from being provided. If a riggedologist could actually definitively prove anything he says he would in a heartbeat.

But hey, I'll send $20 to the riggedologist who actually proves a major room or network's RnG is rigged. That's 20-100 tournament buy ins for most riggedologists so that should provide some incentive.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:35 PM   #10584
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

matched
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:50 PM   #10585
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

How about someone comes up with a program that easily allows analysis of a hand history database? It's all well and good saying that studies have been done and everything is above board but for a worried player who doesn't understand statistics or who cannot fully utilize tracking programs something simple whereby they can just hit a button and then compare their numbers to other peoples results.

It would benefit all poker players, and all potential players, if sites were made accountable. I cannot see how this could be an issue for anyone involved in poker.

I think that the best solution would be for all the sites to release all the hands six months or so after they are played. There are so many games happening at once now that it is inconcievable to think that the sites can properly police everything. A benefit of this would be that it would be easy to compare statistics between sites, any anomaly would surely show up then.

What I don't understand is the responses from some of the regular contributors to this thread. No one deserves to be insulted for expressing their opinions, however right or wrong they are. Monteroy has already admitted he gets his kicks from trolling this thread, never actually contributing anything of worth. Why bother?
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:06 PM   #10586
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by kmpk View Post
How about someone comes up with a program that easily allows analysis of a hand history database? It's all well and good saying that studies have been done and everything is above board but for a worried player who doesn't understand statistics or who cannot fully utilize tracking programs something simple whereby they can just hit a button and then compare their numbers to other peoples results.

It would benefit all poker players, and all potential players, if sites were made accountable. I cannot see how this could be an issue for anyone involved in poker.

I think that the best solution would be for all the sites to release all the hands six months or so after they are played. There are so many games happening at once now that it is inconcievable to think that the sites can properly police everything. A benefit of this would be that it would be easy to compare statistics between sites, any anomaly would surely show up then.
Before you get slammed, I'll say that this idea has some merit and you seem sincere. There are people working on things like this now that datamining has gotten so big and there are huge databases available. I don't think sites are going to be motivated to do this, because it is not trivial at all, and despite threads like this with slanted polls, a large majority of players believe the sites operate honestly, or don't really care. But I agree that a feature like this would be useful and helpful, and marketable.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:36 PM   #10587
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by kmpk View Post
How about someone comes up with a program that easily allows analysis of a hand history database? It's all well and good saying that studies have been done and everything is above board but for a worried player who doesn't understand statistics or who cannot fully utilize tracking programs something simple whereby they can just hit a button and then compare their numbers to other peoples results.
Database programs can do a lot of this already, and you rarely hear from those who use these programs about it being rigged (well, ok some make claims then never offer proof until $25,000 in arranged marriage fees are paid or something).

I do agree that they are not for everyone and while I think most players do not really care how their AK hands do compared to other random people they do not know, they would have fun looking at their all in stats (in terms of wins and losses) broken down by hand type.

I wouldn't even say this is helpful from a prove it aint rigged perspective, more from a user fun perspective where they can see their AA hand went 32-7 or something. If any of the rooms offer such reports or graphs that would be great, I am sure many players (new and experienced) would love to see this basic information. I know I would.

Of course this might teach some people of the true power of the A6o hands they think are the nuts...


Quote:
Originally Posted by kmpk View Post
It would benefit all poker players, and all potential players, if sites were made accountable. I cannot see how this could be an issue for anyone involved in poker.
You are looking at this a bit backwards. Nobody would say they are against more accountability, but the vast majority of users do not care about this because they have faith in the bigger sites.

Would you like 5 trained health inspectors in every McDonalds every day? Sure, why not, more accountability is good. Do they matter when it comes to choosing to buy a burger to nearly every customer? Not really.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kmpk View Post
I think that the best solution would be for all the sites to release all the hands six months or so after they are played. There are so many games happening at once now that it is inconcievable to think that the sites can properly police everything. A benefit of this would be that it would be easy to compare statistics between sites, any anomaly would surely show up then.
This would benefit companies that would use this free data and package it (by game players etc) to others who would use this for their benefit without ever playing the hands themselves.

This blatant and easy form of datamining IS a concern for many players.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kmpk View Post
What I don't understand is the responses from some of the regular contributors to this thread. No one deserves to be insulted for expressing their opinions, however right or wrong they are. Monteroy has already admitted he gets his kicks from trolling this thread, never actually contributing anything of worth. Why bother?
As the poker saying goes - "it depends."

Many of my posts actually include useful information questions and advice, but it is based on who I am posting toward. You are more naive to the issues than paranoid so my response is different in tone than a guy who screams about it being the Russian mafia or something, and I am always polite to the pro Lizard People crowd.

All the best.

Last edited by Monteroy; 11-18-2009 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 12:34 AM   #10588
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmpk View Post
How about someone comes up with a program that easily allows analysis of a hand history database? It's all well and good saying that studies have been done and everything is above board but for a worried player who doesn't understand statistics or who cannot fully utilize tracking programs something simple whereby they can just hit a button and then compare their numbers to other peoples results.

It would benefit all poker players, and all potential players, if sites were made accountable. I cannot see how this could be an issue for anyone involved in poker.

I think that the best solution would be for all the sites to release all the hands six months or so after they are played. There are so many games happening at once now that it is inconcievable to think that the sites can properly police everything. A benefit of this would be that it would be easy to compare statistics between sites, any anomaly would surely show up then.

What I don't understand is the responses from some of the regular contributors to this thread. No one deserves to be insulted for expressing their opinions, however right or wrong they are. Monteroy has already admitted he gets his kicks from trolling this thread, never actually contributing anything of worth. Why bother?
Josem has said that he would be interested in contributing some sort of monetary incentive to someone who could build this site. I would contribute and even pay a fee towards something like this. I like the idea because a lot of people who dont have the math behind them could learn something and it would benefit their growth in the long run because it is hard to play good poker if you have that little "Its Rigged Demon" in the back of your mind while you are trying to play good aggressive poker. What kind of background would a person or persons need to put this together? Anyone?

Last edited by DonkoTheClown; 11-19-2009 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:55 AM   #10589
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Where has QPW gone?
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:39 AM   #10590
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Would you like 5 trained health inspectors in every McDonalds every day? Sure, why not, more accountability is good. Do they matter when it comes to choosing to buy a burger to nearly every customer? Not really.

I would, however like one trained inspector who is honest and forthright to hold several sites accountable, and ensure a fair game. Just like I want food inspectors making sure I'm not eating rat meat.

While I don't believe that sites are rigged, while greed exists, it is certainly within the realm of possibility. The problem isn't whether or not its rigged, it's whether or not the general public believes it is. I don't want to play against good players who understand odds and probability. I want gamblers who have a good time playing, and can get money on the site easily.

I take a different view from the folks that support the sites in that the onus is not on customers to prove anything (unless of course they want to make damning accusations),
but rather up to the sites to ensure a good flow of new customers, as well as satisfying their present ones. Really no diferent than a brick and mortar casino.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:51 PM   #10591
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Would you like 5 trained health inspectors in every McDonalds every day? Sure, why not, more accountability is good. Do they matter when it comes to choosing to buy a burger to nearly every customer? Not really.

I would, however like one trained inspector who is honest and forthright to hold several sites accountable, and ensure a fair game. Just like I want food inspectors making sure I'm not eating rat meat.

Then write the sites with your concerns. That is your right.

Realize that more people write in to ask for more cool, snazzy freerolls and look at Stars latest promo - lots of $1 value freerolls - many people happy.

You will likely never see the pop up say OUR SITE PROVEN NOT RIGGED BY INSPECTORS because the vast majority of players do not have this as a real concern.



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While I don't believe that sites are rigged, while greed exists, it is certainly within the realm of possibility. The problem isn't whether or not its rigged, it's whether or not the general public believes it is. I don't want to play against good players who understand odds and probability. I want gamblers who have a good time playing, and can get money on the site easily.
The general public for the most part does not care about this issue. If they did it would be something the sites talk about all the time as that would be what the customers want to know about.

Most want freerolls and bonuses and nice trinkets in the VIP store and software that works well.

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I take a different view from the folks that support the sites in that the onus is not on customers to prove anything (unless of course they want to make damning accusations),
but rather up to the sites to ensure a good flow of new customers, as well as satisfying their present ones. Really no diferent than a brick and mortar casino.
Write the sites with your concerns and see how they answer them. They are not going to have their main page dedicated to satisfying the needs of a paranoid fringe crowd that will never be satisfied - that's just bad business.

They provide complete hand histories and all of the data is easy to analyze and review. I know there are a ton of riggedologists with all sorts of conflicting pattern mapping systems they "see" but I hope you realize that is nothing other than paranoid people being paranoid and rationalizing away losses. If they had any actual proof ( and many have suggested how they can prove it or offered to analyze their hand histories) then we would have had proof by now.
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:18 PM   #10592
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Then write the sites with your concerns. That is your right.

Realize that more people write in to ask for more cool, snazzy freerolls and look at Stars latest promo - lots of $1 value freerolls - many people happy.

You will likely never see the pop up say OUR SITE PROVEN NOT RIGGED BY INSPECTORS because the vast majority of players do not have this as a real concern.


Really? So put up a poll...Somebody create the thread. "Would you feel more comfortable with an online poker site that was randomly inspected by XXXX"?
Have one of the answers be: It is not a concern of mine whatsoever if my poker site is "rigged"
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:26 PM   #10593
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Really? So put up a poll...Somebody create the thread. "Would you feel more comfortable with an online poker site that was randomly inspected by XXXX"?
Have one of the answers be: It is not a concern of mine whatsoever if my poker site is "rigged"
Or you can write the companies and ask them how they do their market research. Doing a poll with the type of question you suggest is generally not it, because that would be inane.

What they tend to do is read the feedback from customers and at times create a more rational poll of questions about specific areas (customer demands/customer service feedback etc.).

With that feedback they create programs and analyze the impact it has had to their product. Some have worked better than others, and those that work get built on further, those that fail never appear again.

The vast majority of their customers are not fringe paranoid guys thinking "their site is rigged" against them in some huge conspiracy. No business could do well with that type of customer base except those who do lecture tours or sell books based on wacky conspiracies.

This is all very mundane common sense stuff, though I realize not everyone gets it, so I hope this post helps.

All the best.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:06 PM   #10594
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Really? So put up a poll...Somebody create the thread. "Would you feel more comfortable with an online poker site that was randomly inspected by XXXX"?
Have one of the answers be: It is not a concern of mine whatsoever if my poker site is "rigged"
That poll would be as accurate as one of those "do you believe in God" polls CNN and the like enjoy putting up now and then. The only people who really care to vote in them are devout religious people and militant atheists. No one else really cares enough to vote in it.
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:08 PM   #10595
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Really? So put up a poll...Somebody create the thread. "Would you feel more comfortable with an online poker site that was randomly inspected by XXXX"?
Have one of the answers be: It is not a concern of mine whatsoever if my poker site is "rigged"
obv most sane people would answer yes to that question. Monty's point is that the vast majority of players are already comfortable enough to continue playing. Thus there is no point for a site to put any particular effort into what you are suggesting.
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Old 11-21-2009, 01:03 AM   #10596
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I think anyone whos played a lot of live games and has talked about online poker to people that have never played it. Know there is a whole lot of players out there that dont play online because they think it is rigged or illegal. So to say there is no reason for better PR about the integrity and legality of OLP is false imo.

Last edited by batair; 11-21-2009 at 01:05 AM. Reason: that post hurt i dont like agreeing with tk1133
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Old 11-21-2009, 01:51 AM   #10597
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I think anyone whos played a lot of live games and has talked about online poker to people that have never played it. Know there is a whole lot of players out there that dont play online because they think it is rigged or illegal.
I don't necessarily disagree with the final sentence in your post about PR, but your premises are just wrong.

I play a lot live, and I have maybe heard rigged mentioned once, ever, outside the context of joking. And it was by someone who has played online. So not everyone. People tend to think that others believe as they do, and they are often wrong. I'm sure psychologists have a name for that.

As for the illegal part, almost everyone knows that nobody has ever been arrested for playing online poker. Yes, many people think it might be illegal, and in some states it technically is, but that isn't why they aren't playing online. They know that even if it is illegal, it's akin to jaywalking or spitting on the sidewalk laws, that no one is ever charged with breaking. But that's beside the point.

Last edited by spadebidder; 11-21-2009 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:17 AM   #10598
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

A bit of a vague poll.

I think it depends. There has GOT to be some kind of sketchy feature on SOME sites. I remember watching a video of FIVE aces popping up somewhere. Writing a poker program is easy as hell - this means there's something else in the works.

I'd like to see a board of accreditation of sorts check out the inner workings of poker sites.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:27 AM   #10599
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I think it depends. There has GOT to be some kind of sketchy feature on SOME sites. I remember watching a video of FIVE aces popping up somewhere. Writing a poker program is easy as hell - this means there's something else in the works.
Someone once made a faked screenshot of five aces on a PokerStars table once. Someone else once faked an image of a PartyPoker table with the electronic dealer hiding a card up his sleeve. Someone else faked a video of the moon landing being done in a Hollywood studio.

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I'd like to see a board of accreditation of sorts check out the inner workings of poker sites.
Ask, and ye shall receive: http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:43 AM   #10600
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by batair View Post
I think anyone whos played a lot of live games and has talked about online poker to people that have never played it. Know there is a whole lot of players out there that dont play online because they think it is rigged or illegal. So to say there is no reason for better PR about the integrity and legality of OLP is false imo.
Most people I know that play live and online "feels" that badbeats are way more frequent in online poker when it should be the oposite, because online we play more hands/hour so the bad beats should be more irrelevant then live.

Thats a interesting point that people dont understand, if the frequency of badbeats online and live are the same they should be more irrelevant online than live as some argue. Because even if you see more badbeats online they should bother you less because as you play more hands/hour it would be clear very fast that the badbeats dont matter.

What happens in online poker is that a lot of downswings are from badbeats and that is just no sense, you should get a downswing if you get to play against players with the same skill you have and they get luckier, but if you open 10 tables with fish going all in with trash, the word badbeat should never be posted in any forum, because they would be irrelevant to the winnings.


In live game, if you get a badbeat, you may take 1 or 2 days to recover, because the playing is so slow, but that should never happen in online game. But it happens, see the forums, people go in a downswing because they get very long sequences of badbeats.

Anyone that plays a lot live poker knows what im talking about.

Never forget: If you play more hands/hour the badbeats tend to be more irrelevant psychologically even if yoou see them more often. And what hapens is the oposite in online game.


Online poker is rigged so the flow of money from worst hands to the better hands is slower than it should be. I believe a poker room could never survive without that manipulation.
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