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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:31 PM   #10226
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I think he was talking about his particular Country and situation, that being the USA....

So this is why we shouldn't regulate online poker?
That's all you got out of Josem's post? Something he wasn't even saying?
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:52 PM   #10227
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I think he was talking about his particular Country and situation, that being the USA....

So this is why we shouldn't regulate online poker?
I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that there's no evidence that USA regulation is going to be any better than IOM regulation (or Australian regulation or Canadian regulation etc.)

I happen to think that the current regulation in IOM and other European countries is fine. If you disagree, can you please show us why?
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:56 PM   #10228
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I hardly ever disagree with you, and I understand what your saying, this is what I disagree with:
Quote:
Further, given that the US Government appears to be so hopelessly captured by special interest groups and money, it's a bit rich for you Americans to lecture the rest of us on the importance of good regulation. You Americans (in concert with the Europeans and Japanese) impose widespread poverty on many developing nations through your offensive agriculture regulations that favour your special interests. You Americans gives special cash handouts and favourtism in breach of the trade agreements that you have signed with other countries... You Americans have been found guilty by the WTO of discriminating against small countries on gambling regulation... and then your people claim that your regulators or your government is somehow fairer than the rest of the world's? Give me a break.
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:57 PM   #10229
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Why do you disagree with that?
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:59 PM   #10230
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that there's no evidence that USA regulation is going to be any better than IOM regulation (or Australian regulation or Canadian regulation etc.)

I happen to think that the current regulation in IOM and other European countries is fine. If you disagree, can you please show us why?
I mean, do they even have cars there? Or computers? How do they regulate online poker? Do they even KNOW English? Really now...
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:00 PM   #10231
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Why do you disagree with that?
You insulted my Country...
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:03 PM   #10232
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
That's all you got out of Josem's post? Something he wasn't even saying?
I was making the point of why we need regulation...
What I got out of that is that he does not like America.
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:07 PM   #10233
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
That's a shame, because that quote is fundamentally wrong on a number of levels.

Obviously the rule of law and contract enforcement is a key part of any credible libertarian view of the life.

I recognise that some people might have a xenophobia, but these comments are really just a thinly veiled bigoted view dressed up in friendly words.

The rule of law was not invented in the USA.
Democracy was not invented in the USA.
Stable parliamentary systems were not invented in the USA.
Independent judicial systems were not invented in the USA.
High quality online gaming regulation was not invented in the USA.

The suggestion that laws, regulations, and other associated issues, are weaker because they're not American is frankly offensive and fundamentally wrong and bigoted.

Further, given that the US Government appears to be so hopelessly captured by special interest groups and money, it's a bit rich for you Americans to lecture the rest of us on the importance of good regulation. You Americans (in concert with the Europeans and Japanese) impose widespread poverty on many developing nations through your offensive agriculture regulations that favour your special interests. You Americans gives special cash handouts and favourtism in breach of the trade agreements that you have signed with other countries... You Americans have been found guilty by the WTO of discriminating against small countries on gambling regulation... and then your people claim that your regulators or your government is somehow fairer than the rest of the world's? Give me a break.

No it is not.

I don't know why people repeat this falsehood when it is clearly untrue.

Not only do players who play under credibly regulated jurisdictions (eg, IOM or any other European country) have the last resort option of litigation, they also have the option of just contacting the regulator and asking them to intervene.

This doesn't even require lawyers or any cost to the complainant. Of course, not every complaint is upheld, just as not every complaint is dismissed. I've even repeatedly made posts in this very thread outlining a procedure that players can use to confirm that it is impossible to rig a flop, turn or river with the regulators, yet not one person has bothered to put the effort in.

While I recognise that you were just quoting someone else, TK1133, the comments about regulation that you have quoted is just yet another intellectually lazy and fundamentally ignorant comment on the issue.
Um, that was my post tk1133 quoted. It needs to be understood in context, rather than nitpicked to death.

Consider that you have a $1500 dispute with an online poker site. They refuse to give you what you want and you are convinced you are in the right. I am sure you are going to spend the tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees required to sue an overseas corporation in order to collect your $1500. If they had a legal presence in the US, these legal fee calculations would go down exponentially and there would be an option to recover some, or occasionally all, associated fees.

Appeals to the regulatory board (like Isle of Mann for example) depend on the integrity of the regulatory board. I have little doubt about the credibility of these institutions in EU countries. I have my issues with Kahnawake and a few others. At the same time I fully trust FullTilt (licensed by Kahnawake).

The point was simple: in an openly legal US environment for online poker, whatever else it may entail, we players would be assured of reasonable means of legal protection. Without that, we must undertake complex and expensive invocations of international law - a process of little practical value to all but the biggest monetary disputes in at least SOME (if not most) cases.

My sense is you already understand this, not that you would want others to fully comprehend it, of course.

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Old 11-04-2009, 10:11 PM   #10234
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
You insulted my Country...
Well, if you are unhappy about the "insults", you should be unhappy that your coutnry does this. If you consider the truth to be an "insult" then you have some misdirected anger.

It's like someone stealing money, and then being upset at being called a thief. If you don't like being called a thief, don't steal. This is not rocket science.

It's your country (in concert with Japan and Europe) that distorts world markets to hurt developing countries with unfair agricultural subsidies and tariffs.

It's your country that ignores the WTO ruling on gambling regulation - the independent adjudicator ruled in favour of Antigua, and your country just ignores the rules.

It's pretty indecent to then come on here and have you guys lecture the rest of the world on the credibility of regulation.
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:15 PM   #10235
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
You insulted my Country...
So what's your point? His post seemed pretty accurate, FWIW. No country is perfect, including yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I was making the point of why we need regulation...
What I got out of that is that he does not like America.
Actually, I think the point you were making is that you feel the need for American regulation. You've beat that point to death by now. The implication does seem to be that the regulations of any other country mean nothing to you. Don't be so butt-hurt when he makes some points to try and show that American government is not the end all be all of law and regulation.

And I didn't get anything about him not liking America out of that post at all. I did get that he doesn't like a lot of what American governments have done. Neither do I. But I don't hate America or Americans.

But so what if he doesn't?
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:17 PM   #10236
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skallagrim View Post
The point was simple: in an openly legal US environment for online poker, whatever else it may entail, we players would be assured of reasonable means of legal protection. Without that, we must undertake complex and expensive invocations of international law - a process of little practical value to all but the biggest monetary disputes in at least SOME (if not most) cases.
But you don't need to undertake complex and expensive processes if you're unhappy about a situation run in any of the credibly regulated jurisdictions: If you're unhappy about the situation with an Isle of Man regulated online poker provider, then contact the regulator: http://www.gov.im/gambling/players.xml

I once had a query about one of their practices and just picked up the phone and rang them. They answered in English, were very helpful, and the whole process took like 5˝ minutes (the person who answer the phone put me on hold for like 60 seconds of that).

The issue isn't here of "USA" vs "Rest of World". It's "Credible Regulators" vs "Shonky Renegade Groups".

The UK Gambling White List is probably a reasonable test of this stuff. See http://www.pokernews.com/news/2008/0...ke-antigua.htm
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:18 PM   #10237
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skallagrim View Post
Appeals to the regulatory board (like Isle of Mann for example) depend on the integrity of the regulatory board. I have little doubt about the credibility of these institutions in EU countries. I have my issues with Kahnawake and a few others. At the same time I fully trust FullTilt (licensed by Kahnawake).
One small nitpick, Full Tilt is also regulated by Alderney and holds a gambling license there under the name Filco Ltd., and that is in fact their jurisdiction for player disputes according to their T&C, not Kahnawakee. Alderney has basically the same jurisdictional status as the IoM in that it is a UK crown dependency that is guided by UK and EU laws, and in some cases subject to them. I fully trust Full Tilt too, but I don't necessarily trust Kahnawakee. I think the arrangement there is just that Full Tilt hosts their North American servers at MIT in Kahnawakee, and I assume that requires a permit from the KGC.

Note that until a couple years ago Stars also hosted servers there, but they moved them to another facility on IOM, which ironically is now (I think) part-owned by MIT/Kahnawakee too since they bought a big share of that hosting outfit recently. Josem can correct me if that's wrong.

The bottom line is that the two largest sites are both subject to reputable and stringent regulation already, as are some of the second tier sites too, since they are mostly in Europe and several are even public companies. But I don't disagree with Skall's point about dispute resolution being more difficult when having to deal with international issues.

Edit after seeing above post - note that both Alderney and IoM are on the UK white list. Kahnawakee is not, they applied and were denied.

Last edited by spadebidder; 11-04-2009 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:19 PM   #10238
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
What I got out of that is that he does not like America.
Funny , I have never gotten that out of his poasts.WTF is going on here? I thought this was the riggtard thread , not the regulationtard thread. What happened tk ? After your bot thread (which you were correct ,IMO)I thought you had turned the corner. Now ur in here arguing with the good poasters again, C'mon man .
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:21 PM   #10239
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
But you don't need to undertake complex and expensive processes if you're unhappy about a situation run in any of the credibly regulated jurisdictions: If you're unhappy about the situation with an Isle of Man regulated online poker provider, then contact the regulator: http://www.gov.im/gambling/players.xml

I once had a query about one of their practices and just picked up the phone and rang them. They answered in English, were very helpful, and the whole process took like 5˝ minutes (the person who answer the phone put me on hold for like 60 seconds of that).

The issue isn't here of "USA" vs "Rest of World". It's "Credible Regulators" vs "Shonky Renegade Groups".

The UK Gambling White List is probably a reasonable test of this stuff. See http://www.pokernews.com/news/2008/0...ke-antigua.htm
You don't get a disagreement from me here. UK and Isle of Man regulatory bodies are top notch and I agree they take complaints seriously and resolve them fairly.

But not every site is a UK or Isle of Man site, that is important to note. Other jurisdictions = other issues.

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Old 11-04-2009, 10:27 PM   #10240
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I think Skallagrim makes some good points. It certainly would be more convenient for American players to be able to have disputes heard in the US. It would be more convenient for me to be able to have them heard in Canada. Unfortunately, it would take a radical change in US lawmakers' attitude for that to ever happen.

But that doesn't seem to ever be tk's point. tk seems to feel that a site can't be trusted unless they're overseen by a US regulator.
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:30 PM   #10241
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skallagrim View Post
You don't get a disagreement from me here. UK and Isle of Man regulatory bodies are top notch and I agree they take complaints seriously and resolve them fairly.

But not every site is a UK or Isle of Man site, that is important to note. Other jurisdictions = other issues.

Skallagrim
I agree entirely.
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Originally Posted by Got Nutz? View Post
Funny , I have never gotten that out of his poasts.WTF is going on here? I thought this was the riggtard thread , not the regulationtard thread. What happened tk ? After your bot thread (which you were correct ,IMO)I thought you had turned the corner. Now ur in here arguing with the good poasters again, C'mon man .
I really think I'm not anti-US. On the issue that I feel most strongly about (trade imbalances) I really think that one of the highlights of Bush's presidency was his efforts to end the unfair situation. Unfortunately, his very promising offers were rejected by the EU and they deserve more blame, but the US certainly was heading in the right direction.
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:38 PM   #10242
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
I think Skallagrim makes some good points. It certainly would be more convenient for American players to be able to have disputes heard in the US. It would be more convenient for me to be able to have them heard in Canada. Unfortunately, it would take a radical change in US lawmakers' attitude for that to ever happen.

But that doesn't seem to ever be tk's point. tk seems to feel that a site can't be trusted unless they're overseen by a US regulator.
Ok, I have kept my mouth shut about a lot of things and kept my post lengths to a minimum. But that statement right there is totally untrue. I live in the USA, and I'm no where close to a biggot nor think my country is better then any body else's. I have a huge problem w/ foreign Indian Tribes, governing my online poker money. AB/UB? What kind of "regulation" is that? Are you implying that even if the US regulates online poker that another UB/AP situation would occur with the same outcome? Under a Gov't liscense they wouldn't be punished, nobody prosecuted? Pitbull Poker? So I don't know where you get off acting like I pointed out PS or FTP, in particular....

Personally, I speak of the US regulation b/c that pertains to how the UIGEA effects me...
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:40 PM   #10243
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
I think Skallagrim makes some good points. It certainly would be more convenient for American players to be able to have disputes heard in the US. It would be more convenient for me to be able to have them heard in Canada. Unfortunately, it would take a radical change in US lawmakers' attitude for that to ever happen.

But that doesn't seem to ever be tk's point. tk seems to feel that a site can't be trusted unless they're overseen by a US regulator.

Lots have that belief system, and I don't think it is always xenophobia, many times it is just simple ignorance of the world and how it works.

Not sure why you guys take tk's posts so seriously. While he seems to be genuine in his beliefs, they are always fairly uninformed and emotional and superficial without ever showing the ability to change or adapt to a flowing conversation.

He's probably a nice enough guy, but who cares what he says really?
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:50 PM   #10244
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Ok, I have kept my mouth shut about a lot of things and kept my post lengths to a minimum. But that statement right there is totally untrue. I live in the USA, and I'm no where close to a biggot nor think my country is better then any body else's. I have a huge problem w/ foreign Indian Tribes, governing my online poker money. AB/UB? What kind of "regulation is that"? Are you saying that even if the US regulates online poker that another UB/AP situation would occur with the same outcome? Under a liscense they wouldn't be punished, nobody prosecuted? Pitbull Poker? So I don't know where you get off acting like I pointed out PS or FTP, in particular....

Personally, I speak of the US regulation b/c that pertains to how the UIGEA effects me...
I don't think you'll find anyone argue the point that AP & UB were largely unregulated. Not all poker sites, or their regulators, are equal.

With sites based off-shore and with US regulation in place, I think it definitely could've fallen out the same way. If the site was based in the US and had US regulation, it's much less likely. And you could insert many countries in place of the US in that statement.

Not sure what you're talking about with regard to PS and FTP. I never said anything about that.

So tell me something. Is there a poker site that you trust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Lots have that belief system, and I don't think it is always xenophobia, many times it is just simple ignorance of the world and how it works.

Not sure why you guys take tk's posts so seriously. While he seems to be genuine in his beliefs, they are always fairly uninformed and emotional and superficial without ever showing the ability to change or adapt to a flowing conversation.

He's probably a nice enough guy, but who cares what he says really?
Since he's serious, I take his posts seriously. Not seriously in that I let them bother me or choose to reply to all (or even many) of them. But when I do reply, I often will in a serious manner. I go days, week, even months without replying ITT because I understand the futility of debating most of these guys. But once in a while I see something that compels me to post.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:09 PM   #10245
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'm quoting from Bobo Fat's quote, since I've had tk on ignore for a while.

Quote:
I live in the USA, and I'm no where close to a biggot nor think my country is better then any body else's. I have a huge problem w/ foreign Indian Tribes, governing my online poker money.
The irony of those two statements is amazing.

I understand that one specific government that happens to be run by the Mohawk Native American tribe has a bad reputation, but the nature of bigotry is generalizing and using stereotypes. This should be a dictionary example imo. He needs to reexamine his beliefs and quit rationalizing. This sounds like it came straight out of the mouth of Archie Bunker. The grammar and spelling appear to be from the same source, as well.

Last edited by spadebidder; 11-04-2009 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:13 AM   #10246
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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I have a huge problem w/ foreign Indian Tribes, governing my online poker money. AB/UB? What kind of "regulation" is that?
I agree entirely with you that the regulation there is crap. I don't think there's anyone who is not associated with the KGC (or one of their licensed poker sites such as AP, UB, Bodog, & Full Tilt) that would argue that the KGC is of any real value at all.


I think that we all agree that this is not a US vs Rest of World issue. It's a "good regulator" (Currently UK, Isle of Man, Australia, etc. but possibly USA in the future) against "bad regulator" (Kahnawake) issue.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:46 AM   #10247
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I'm quoting from Bobo Fat's quote, since I've had tk on ignore for a while.



The irony of those two statements is amazing.

I understand that one specific government that happens to be run by the Mohawk Native American tribe has a bad reputation, but the nature of bigotry is generalizing and using stereotypes. This should be a dictionary example imo. He needs to reexamine his beliefs and quit rationalizing. This sounds like it came straight out of the mouth of Archie Bunker. The grammar and spelling appear to be from the same source, as well.
Maybe it's the fact that the Kahnawake provide very little in actual regulation, but gain quit a lot in fees. Personally I have no idea why they are able to skim so much from online sites in this day and age. It's a racket. What do they do exactly?
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Old 11-05-2009, 04:57 AM   #10248
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
So I don't know where you get off acting like I pointed out PS or FTP, in particular....
afaik you certainly insinuated that at IOM sites are more or less unregulated, or at the very least that you don't trust them (from other thread):

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsNotLupus View Post
I never heard of a site playing poker on their customers accounts. Most sites dont even allow their employees to have an account on the site they work for. I guess the same ruling is valid for pokerstars. So I was wondering how many gaming laws Pokerstars violated when that employee started playing hands for a customer.
And why pokerstars would break the integrity of their customers, just to set things right in a freeroll is beyond me.
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+1
But....
What gambling laws? This isn't Las Vegas...
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Originally Posted by BlunderCity View Post
You trust Vegas more than the Isle of Man?

Interesting...
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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
I can physically shake hands w/ a vegas gaming official...interesting...?
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Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
and you can't with an iom official?
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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Interesting...You tell me...
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Originally Posted by sportsjefe View Post
*shakes head*

If I'm being leveled... so what.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man



It's not an Indian shell game, it's an actual place, with actual people, that you can actually find on a map.
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Originally Posted by sebasdess View Post
You are right.

Those are only cyber-people...

*rolleyes*
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Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
http://www.gov.im/gambling/benefits/aboutgcc.xml

"The Treasury devotes resources to the Commission which is made up of a Director, a Policy Officer, five Gaming Inspectors and two Secretaries, who jointly have over 60 years’ experience in the licensing, regulation and operational aspects of gambling."



As stated by posters above IOM is a real place, with actual regulations etc.




You assume too much.

Your attitude (which leads to people calling you a bigot) seems to be "if it's outside of US it must mean it's unregulated, that there are no laws there, and that any gaming license is just a fancy etiquette you get to put on your site for a fee".

If you're attitude instead was "hmm I wonder if there are *actually* any regulations for these sites" and then you would go out and research the subject, then people would look at you differently, and respect you more.

More importantly I believe that with such an attitude, applied not only to online poker but to other aspects of life, you would be a less suspicious individual and end up with more energy to use in a positive and constructive way in your life.

assume less, research more. be suspicious and skeptical by all means, I think a certain degree of that is very healthy, but do not assume. (negative) assumptions lead to overly suspiciousness, which may lead to paranoia.

Last edited by SwedishMedusa; 11-05-2009 at 04:58 AM. Reason: fixed the quote in the quote that had disappeared
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:57 PM   #10249
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'm not here to advertise for any sites, but it should be pretty clear what site I trust...

Last edited by tk1133; 11-05-2009 at 07:03 PM. Reason: PS
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:01 PM   #10250
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwedishMedusa View Post
afaik you certainly insinuated that at IOM sites are more or less unregulated, or at the very least that you don't trust them (from other thread):



















Your attitude (which leads to people calling you a bigot) seems to be "if it's outside of US it must mean it's unregulated, that there are no laws there, and that any gaming license is just a fancy etiquette you get to put on your site for a fee".

If you're attitude instead was "hmm I wonder if there are *actually* any regulations for these sites" and then you would go out and research the subject, then people would look at you differently, and respect you more.

More importantly I believe that with such an attitude, applied not only to online poker but to other aspects of life, you would be a less suspicious individual and end up with more energy to use in a positive and constructive way in your life.

assume less, research more. be suspicious and skeptical by all means, I think a certain degree of that is very healthy, but do not assume. (negative) assumptions lead to overly suspiciousness, which may lead to paranoia.
Take my quotes out of context.....

You asked a question on who I'd trust more a Vegas official or an Isle of Man official. I think common sense that is that I live in the USA...kind of no brainer.... But that was a hypothetical question wasn't it? Does LV or Nev. gaming commission regulate any poker sites? your turning my response into a statement that you claim I made. So you do some research or learn how to comprehend english.
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