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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:29 PM   #10076
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufnacehole View Post
LOL why is this so hard for you people to beleive? Aren't you guys raking in the dough too?

I have no stats, as these programs will get your account closed at cake poker.

But if anyone wants to make a wager, i can post a screenshot of my transaction history.
Tracking your own play at Cake is perfectly fine as long as you don't use a HUD. Cake (can) store hand histories on your computer, so you actually have the opportunity to present us with your epic history with AA at Cake.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:33 PM   #10077
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sure View Post
Tracking your own play at Cake is perfectly fine as long as you don't use a HUD. Cake (can) store hand histories on your computer, so you actually have the opportunity to present us with your epic history with AA at Cake.
Please explain how i would find that on my hard drive, and i will post.

I solely play double up sit n goes at the $25 and $50 levels.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:36 PM   #10078
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Beleive it or not, i am one of those %10 that consistently pull out money from the donks.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:38 PM   #10079
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufnacehole View Post
Please explain how i would find that on my hard drive, and i will post.

I solely play double up sit n goes at the $25 and $50 levels.
You can't post your entire hand histories here. But running your hand histories through HEM/PT would at least show you (and us) both how many times you have been dealt AA and what your win percentage is with them.

Not that I believe for a second that Cake is "rigged."

EDIT: they are under C:\Program Files\Cake Poker\Hand Histories or thereabouts.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:40 PM   #10080
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufnacehole View Post
Because i just made my second $1500 cashout from Cake poker in less than a month from a $50 initial deposit.

However, i should have about $2000 more if it wasn't for the rigged software (or just plain bad luck).
221:1 you will get AA, lets say you need only 500 times AA to be sure that you are not on a downswing/upswing or that you are just having huge variance. Makes 221*500 = 110500 hands.

I doubt that you are a heavy grinder that plays 16 tables at once, as recreational or hobby player you probably do 10.000-30.000 hands as a maximum. So with under a months time and a $50 deposit it is impossible to increase the bankroll to $1500+ with a good BRM and without being unbelieveable lucky. I also doubt that you are a good player, because you wouldn't have started this epic thread.

I would assume that you belong to the 90% as mentioned earlier, you are a fish sir.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:41 PM   #10081
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufnacehole View Post
Aren't you guys raking in the dough too?
Yes we rake it in. We just turn on our computer, log into a poker site, play a few hands, win money, and send it home.

This happens to all 2+2er's. You should have gotten a "win" micro chip when you signed onto twoplustwo. This is a quality product in my opinion, since I installed it, I have been a guarantieed winner; I no longer have to worry about bad beats or being outdrawn with AA, since my win chip eliminates any possibility of losing...
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:44 PM   #10082
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineLuckBox View Post
I also doubt that you are a good player, because you wouldn't have started this epic thread.
+1

But that can change, OP. Off with the tinfoil hat, and get to work!
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:49 PM   #10083
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineLuckBox View Post
221:1 you will get AA, lets say you need only 500 times AA to be sure that you are not on a downswing/upswing or that you are just having huge variance. Makes 221*500 = 110500 hands.

I doubt that you are a heavy grinder that plays 16 tables at once, as recreational or hobby player you probably do 10.000-30.000 hands as a maximum. So with under a months time and a $50 deposit it is impossible to increase the bankroll to $1500+ with a good BRM and without being unbelieveable lucky. I also doubt that you are a good player, because you wouldn't have started this epic thread.

I would assume that you belong to the 90% as mentioned earlier, you are a fish sir.
Well, i usually play 4x $25 or 2x $50 at a time, plus i get 33% rakeback every week. But I was actually down to less than 5 bucks at one point, had to play a heads up for 2 dollars, then parlayed that up to 10 bucks with a 5 dollar double up sit n go... and the rest is history.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:50 PM   #10084
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

What is up with all the animosity on this forum? I understand that most of you are losing money, but trust me, i will put it to good use.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:54 PM   #10085
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufnacehole View Post
What is up with all the animosity on this forum? I understand that most of you are losing money, but trust me, i will put it to good use.
No animosity from my side. You just have to understand that these kind of threads come up constantly, and people have yet to see any conclusive data behind the claims (AFAIK). It gets tiring after a while, and I mostly just lurk.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:56 PM   #10086
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

OP you have to ask the site to make you a "superuser" that's what everyone else here did and it works for us. Just e-mail them
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:57 PM   #10087
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

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OP you have to ask the site to make you a "superuser" that's what everyone else here did and it works for us. Just e-mail them
SSSSHHH!
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:57 PM   #10088
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

I use Juks all-in analyzer and right now I'm - $27 in the luck category. It almost feels rigged right now. Hopefully it turns around. I've never seen such bad luck in my life.

If you think a site is rigged, use some kind of all-in analyzer and see what it says. If you have a thousands of games behind you and your luck is still really negative, then it is rigged. If it's not then it's a fair game. I've used the juks all-in analyzer on full tilt poker over 1200 tourney span and all seemed right to me. Full Tilt is a fair and legitimate site from what I can tell so far.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:59 PM   #10089
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

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Old 10-29-2009, 02:48 PM   #10090
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufnacehole View Post
My most recent account was at Cake Poker, and let me tell you, they are just as rigged as titan or VC poker. Short stack always has an edge if they push all in, acton flops out the ass... etc.

Sure, u will get your obligitory winning streaks, like the rest of the donks, but you will then be FORCED into coolers. IE, someone pushes on your AA and you end up loosing to 2 pairs, and forced to win back what you just won!

I have lost when all in preflop with dominating hands more times than i have won. This always seems to be the case when i am up, and i'm fed up!

I just want a site that dishes out the proper odds. I don't mind getting sucked out 20% of the time with AA, but it should not be over 20%!.

I'm staring to beleive that i'm jsut a donk that uses the 'rigged' theory to avoid the true reason for my losses because this seems to happen at every site i play at, but how can this be? How can the underdogs always have a friggin edge on me when i have made a decent amount of money?
I've read all of the responses and your replies to them in this thread up to now, and indeed most of them have been confrontational, argumentative and/or sarcastic.

So let me try to actually answer your questions.

1. Q: "Are there any non-rigged sites left?"

A: Yes...all of them. AFAIK, all of them are "non-rigged." In the past, some of them have stolen money from players through assorted means and some of them have had cheating/security/integrity violations that went ignored and/or undetected, causing players to unfairly lose. However, I have never heard of anyone "proving" with empirical, scientific, and statistically significant data that any poker site "rigged" its games. Your skimpy anecdotal evidence does not even come close to rising to the level of being empirical, scientific and statisitically significant. Thus, I remain unconvinced that Cake Poker or any other poker site you have played is rigged.

2. Q: "I'm staring to beleive that i'm jsut a donk that uses the 'rigged' theory to avoid the true reason for my losses because this seems to happen at every site i play at, but how can this be?"

A: This is a possibility. At least you have acknowledged that this possibility exists, but refuse to believe that it really applies to you. Embrace this possibility. Improve your game, technically and fundamentally. Make adjustments, tactically and emotionally.

3. Q: "How can the underdogs always have a friggin edge on me when i have made a decent amount of money?"

A: They don't. This is "loser-speak." First, there are no absolutes in poker, or in life for that matter. There is no "always." So if you believe the underdogs "always" have an edge on you, you are already a loser. The fact of the matter is that even when you are dealt AA, there are going to be a lot of hands that your opponent(s) could be dealt in which he/she has more that a 20% chance of winning, therefore you should expect to lose more than 20% of the time you are dealt AA. Yet you don't! Why? Because you choose not to base your conclusions on empirical, scientific and statistically significant data, but instead to base them on flimsy, anecdotal evidence.

My advice to you is that if you truly want some constructive feedback from this forum regarding your problem then SHOW US SOME FRIGGIN EMPIRICAL, SCIENTIFIC AND STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT DATA!

Last edited by Wahoo73; 10-29-2009 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Typo correction
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:09 PM   #10091
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

I hear it is less rigged at higher stakes.
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:16 PM   #10092
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

I thought only play money was rigged
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:36 PM   #10093
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

This most recently merged thread (Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?) should send a message to the rigtards who feel the regs in this thread are shills. There you have a ton of non-TGPIRDCTE-regs, all saying the same thing as the "shills" in this thread. Those posters just don't feel like contributing to this thread. But surprise surprise, they have the same opinion as the "shills"
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:48 PM   #10094
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gss99 View Post
I use Juks all-in analyzer and right now I'm - $27 in the luck category. It almost feels rigged right now. Hopefully it turns around. I've never seen such bad luck in my life.

If you think a site is rigged, use some kind of all-in analyzer and see what it says. If you have a thousands of games behind you and your luck is still really negative, then it is rigged. If it's not then it's a fair game. I've used the juks all-in analyzer on full tilt poker over 1200 tourney span and all seemed right to me. Full Tilt is a fair and legitimate site from what I can tell so far.
I honestly think the zoo and this thread in particular are my new favorites. This **** is HILARIOUS.
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Old 10-29-2009, 04:12 PM   #10095
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

A debate between


Quote:
Originally Posted by ufnacehole View Post
My most recent account was at Cake Poker, and let me tell you, they are just as rigged as titan or VC poker. Short stack always has an edge if they push all in
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skokky View Post
THINK ABOUT THIS
You are on the bubble of an mtt at stars.

You get AA go all in and get called by the biggest stack,
with 22 and get busted by the 22 making a flush.

My arguement is that the big stacks win more all ins late in the mtt with underdog atc than early in mtt's.
would be fun to watch.

I imagine in the end they would just both agree that something is fishy.
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:11 PM   #10096
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ertai2 View Post
Play at a poker site that is Ecogra verified. None of the US-friendly sites are, go figure.
ecogra is owned by two operators, Microgaming and 888.com (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECOGRA)

Given part of their assessment process includes source code review, it is difficult to imagine an unrelated organisation providing their source code to a competitor to review.
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:05 PM   #10097
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufnacehole View Post
I just want a site that dishes out the proper odds. I don't mind getting sucked out 20% of the time with AA, but it should not be over 20%!.
That's not how probability works. It's entirely possible to lose with AA 100% of the time over a small sample, just like if you flip a coin enough times, you can flip 100 heads in a row.

In the long run, though, over a decent sized sample since there are so many different hand possibilities, your AA will win ~80% of the time, just like over a large enough sample your coin will flip heads 50% of the time.

The problem really is that a large enough sample for flipping a coin is something like 1,000 flips, but a large enough sample for poker hands is at least 100,000, and even that can be too small to get true probabilities.
Quote:
I'm staring to beleive that i'm jsut a donk that uses the 'rigged' theory to avoid the true reason for my losses because this seems to happen at every site i play at, but how can this be?
Because this is how our brains are wired. "Bad" things stick out and make lasting memories, "good" ones go by basically unnoticed. Think about a road with 4 o 5 traffic lights that you drive down regularly. When was the last time you had to stop at every single light? You can probably think of that within the past week. Now, when was the last time they were all green and you sailed on through? Unless it was today, you probably don't remember, since lights are "supposed" to be green.

Poker's the same way. Your AA beats 22 and you don't even blink, because your AA are "supposed" to beat 22. But the one in five times you're supposed to lose, it stands out, because "OMG my 80% favorite lost!"

If you play enough, you'll lose a lot of 80% hands, a lot of 70% hands, and a ton of 55% hands. Of course, you'll win more of those than you'll lose (and if you don't, please, for the love of God, show us) but you'll forget about them because everything went as it was "supposed" to.

This, combined with the fact that poker players are typically ego driven narcissists, leads to many people thinking "I'm too good to lose so much, the game must not be fair." This gets further compounded by it being infinitely easier to go "Online poker's rigged against me/for these awful players" than it is to go "Oh, maybe I take TPTK hands too far when it's obvious I'm beat. Maybe I should plug up my leaks."
Quote:
How can the underdogs always have a friggin edge on me when i have made a decent amount of money?
See above. I know this has already been touched on, but you should be able to get your hand histories from Cake and import them into HEM or PT3. Depending on how many hands you've played, I'd be willing to make a friendly wager that your AA have won close to 80% of the time, and that you've won about 55% of the time as a 55% favorite.

As somewhat of an aside to my stupidly long post, I've noticed most "rigtards" play tournaments of some sort, where losing an 80/20 means you're out of the game entirely. Bust out of a few SNGs in a row as a slight favorite, and you're gonna feel ****ty, just like people playing cash games start to get a bit grumpy when they lose a few flips in succession. The difference is now you have to start winning even more flips to try to cash in more SNGs to get even, and not just grind some more hands for your 5bb/100 winrate or whatever.
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:26 PM   #10098
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Stop this "poker is rigged" madness. You rigged theorists are all a bunch of crazy people.

BTW I am a "poker is not rigged" theorist.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:36 PM   #10099
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
A debate between




and



would be fun to watch.

I imagine in the end they would just both agree that something is fishy.
One is talking about cash games and the other MTT's!

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-30-2009 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:36 PM   #10100
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Re: Are there any non-rigged sites left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by otatop View Post
That's not how probability works. It's entirely possible to lose with AA 100% of the time over a small sample, just like if you flip a coin enough times, you can flip 100 heads in a row.

In the long run, though, over a decent sized sample since there are so many different hand possibilities, your AA will win ~80% of the time, just like over a large enough sample your coin will flip heads 50% of the time.

The problem really is that a large enough sample for flipping a coin is something like 1,000 flips, but a large enough sample for poker hands is at least 100,000, and even that can be too small to get true probabilities.Because this is how our brains are wired. "Bad" things stick out and make lasting memories, "good" ones go by basically unnoticed. Think about a road with 4 o 5 traffic lights that you drive down regularly. When was the last time you had to stop at every single light? You can probably think of that within the past week. Now, when was the last time they were all green and you sailed on through? Unless it was today, you probably don't remember, since lights are "supposed" to be green.

Poker's the same way. Your AA beats 22 and you don't even blink, because your AA are "supposed" to beat 22. But the one in five times you're supposed to lose, it stands out, because "OMG my 80% favorite lost!"

If you play enough, you'll lose a lot of 80% hands, a lot of 70% hands, and a ton of 55% hands. Of course, you'll win more of those than you'll lose (and if you don't, please, for the love of God, show us) but you'll forget about them because everything went as it was "supposed" to.

This, combined with the fact that poker players are typically ego driven narcissists, leads to many people thinking "I'm too good to lose so much, the game must not be fair." This gets further compounded by it being infinitely easier to go "Online poker's rigged against me/for these awful players" than it is to go "Oh, maybe I take TPTK hands too far when it's obvious I'm beat. Maybe I should plug up my leaks."See above. I know this has already been touched on, but you should be able to get your hand histories from Cake and import them into HEM or PT3. Depending on how many hands you've played, I'd be willing to make a friendly wager that your AA have won close to 80% of the time, and that you've won about 55% of the time as a 55% favorite.

As somewhat of an aside to my stupidly long post, I've noticed most "rigtards" play tournaments of some sort, where losing an 80/20 means you're out of the game entirely. Bust out of a few SNGs in a row as a slight favorite, and you're gonna feel ****ty, just like people playing cash games start to get a bit grumpy when they lose a few flips in succession. The difference is now you have to start winning even more flips to try to cash in more SNGs to get even, and not just grind some more hands for your 5bb/100 winrate or whatever.
This is probably the most accurate assessment of my situation that i have heard so far, and i agree with everything you said.

Damn, i kinda feel like a dumbass for berating Titan Poker's live support, even thought they kept throwing me free money on 3 separate occasions so i would come back to their site.

There is no way that different poker networks would rig their software in the same way. These beats are just how poker is.
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