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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:55 PM   #9951
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
Among the many, many, ridiculous things he's saying, yes, that seems to be one of them.
Another is that using deceptive betting in poker, a game where deception is absolutely essential and a core part of the game by design, is wrong. He should just quit.
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:15 PM   #9952
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
Anyway, the courts of California (Note: I think it was in California, where the last lawsuit was filed) will decide, "How constitutional this agreement is?" Because Full Tilt seized the money of the two players, using the words of their agreement. It certainly will be torn part by the lawyers.
It will be enjoyment to see the end verdict on this case.
Oh.

So Full Tilt have moved to the jurisdiction of Californian courts?

When did this happen?

Quote:
During my poker playing clubs days, checking and raising back was not allowed. The reason is quite simple, it was used to deceive a person, or con a person out of the money. In fact, a person who checked a big hand, just to set someone up, in hope someone would try a bluff. These people were called "chiselers."
So, let me get this straight:

Check raising to try and get money from someone is cheating but bluffing for the same purpose isn't?

What about slow playing. Seems a pretty damn underhand way to carry on to me.

Quote:
Are you proud of yourself, because of your check and raise stunt. Did you smile because you have deceived someone. Deceiving or conning is a criminal actions in a public view.
And bluffing isn't?

Quote:
One thing, BOTs don't check and raise.
How the f*** can you possibly know that?

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BOTs don't deceive anyone, they play a very up and up game. But they are called cheaters.
Actually, they aren't. (Think about it )
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:24 PM   #9953
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
During my poker playing clubs days, checking and raising back was not allowed.
If I had played in poker rooms with similar rules, I would not have checked and raised. It is very simple - the place where you play decides what the rules of the game are. No site I have ever played in has prohibited checking and raising. You have played on a site which prohibits using bots, and still done so (or claimed to have done so, no offense but I doubt your claim very very much).
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:30 PM   #9954
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Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

I know that this is mostly an online poker is rigged post, but I'm going to attempt to get some rational responses anyway. I'm a US player. I have played at Poker Stars in the past, but I don't like the lack of decent rakeback, the point system or the tight players. However, I trust PS's RNG because of several studies that I have read proving it is fair.

Since 2007, I have mostly played at sites like AP, Cake, FTP and Merge. I played some at Microgaming before it left the US market and some at Bodog. I play at NL25-NL200. Before this year, I averaged about 3 big blinds/100 after rake back. I never thought that any of these sites were rigged or unfair except maybe FTP because I had awful luck at FTP and won at every other site.

However, this year has been a nightmare for me. I started playing at AP and Cake. I dropped Cake and added FTP, but dropped it because it was still awful for me. I have been playing mostly at AP for the last few months and some at Carbon Poker on Merge. Still even after rake back, I am a slight loser this year and way behind on EV according to a new program for HEM called SECT. The last two days, I have flopped top 2 once when another player flopped bottom set, flopped a set that lost to a higher set hit on the turn and flopped top two pair that lost to a set hit on the turn. Plus, I had KK v. AA. The problem is that this has been typical since late March. At least, the first three months were profitable, but not great. I've gone from playing 4 tables of NL200 to 6 tables of NL50 and occasionally a table of two of NL25 which I had not played since 2007. My losing streak is now over 300,000 hands.

I am beginning to wonder if FTP, AP, Merge and maybe most sites, except PS, does not deal a random deck after the flop or even after the deal to protect bad players because it has become more difficult to replace players. I have no real proof. I may just be very unlucky.

But I do know that I won at AP in 2007 and 2008 and cannot get a break on that site in 2009. Same thing happened at Cake which was so bad this year that I left it. Also, I want to play at the sites that permit HUD programs.

So do you believe that any chance exists that these sites are rigging the deck after the deal or after the flop this year (when they have not in the past) because of the difficulty of players to deposit or am I just in a very unlucky losing streak?
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:42 PM   #9955
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Re: Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

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Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
So do you believe that any chance exists that these sites are rigging the deck after the deal or after the flop this year (when they have not in the past) because of the difficulty of players to deposit or am I just in a very unlucky losing streak?
The chance is less than a fraction of a percent. As has been asked before, what does a site have to gain by rigging the deck agianst you?

I've played hundreds of thousands of hands on Full Tilt and my EV graph looks pretty normal.
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:42 PM   #9956
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
Oh.

So Full Tilt have moved to the jurisdiction of Californian courts?

When did this happen?



So, let me get this straight:

Check raising to try and get money from someone is cheating but bluffing for the same purpose isn't?

What about slow playing. Seems a pretty damn underhand way to carry on to me.



And bluffing isn't?



How the f*** can you possibly know that?



Actually, they aren't. (Think about it )
Go here and you can see the actual lawsuit. It was filed in California.

http://pokerati.com/wp-content/uploa...t-bot-suit.pdf

Best
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:44 PM   #9957
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Pyromantha View Post
If I had played in poker rooms with similar rules, I would not have checked and raised. It is very simple - the place where you play decides what the rules of the game are. No site I have ever played in has prohibited checking and raising. You have played on a site which prohibits using bots, and still done so (or claimed to have done so, no offense but I doubt your claim very very much).
This goes back to the clubs, thirty years ago
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:48 PM   #9958
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Re: Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
Since 2007, I have mostly played at sites like AP, Cake, FTP and Merge. I played some at Microgaming before it left the US market and some at Bodog. I play at NL25-NL200. Before this year, I averaged about 3 big blinds/100 after rake back. I never thought that any of these sites were rigged or unfair except maybe FTP because I had awful luck at FTP and won at every other site.

However, this year has been a nightmare for me. I started playing at AP and Cake. I dropped Cake and added FTP, but dropped it because it was still awful for me. I have been playing mostly at AP for the last few months and some at Carbon Poker on Merge. Still even after rake back, I am a slight loser this year and way behind on EV according to a new program for HEM called SECT. The last two days, I have flopped top 2 once when another player flopped bottom set, flopped a set that lost to a higher set hit on the turn and flopped top two pair that lost to a set hit on the turn. Plus, I had KK v. AA. The problem is that this has been typical since late March. At least, the first three months were profitable, but not great. I've gone from playing 4 tables of NL200 to 6 tables of NL50 and occasionally a table of two of NL25 which I had not played since 2007. My losing streak is now over 300,000 hands.
Sounds like you are just not a winning player. Seriously, how else can this be interpreted in a logical manner?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
I am beginning to wonder if FTP, AP, Merge and maybe most sites, except PS, does not deal a random deck after the flop or even after the deal to protect bad players because it has become more difficult to replace players. I have no real proof. I may just be very unlucky.
300,000 hands is a hard amount to be unlucky the whole time.

You may not be a winning player in the games you are playing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
But I do know that I won at AP in 2007 and 2008 and cannot get a break on that site in 2009. Same thing happened at Cake which was so bad this year that I left it. Also, I want to play at the sites that permit HUD programs.
The games have improved over time, so while you may have been a winning player , you may not be any more if the skill level of the games have passed you by.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
So do you believe that any chance exists that these sites are rigging the deck after the deal or after the flop this year (when they have not in the past) because of the difficulty of players to deposit or am I just in a very unlucky losing streak?
I think the odds that multiple sites are rigging it specifically against you is 0%.

I think you may want to consider dealing what may actually be the root cause of your losing.
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:59 PM   #9959
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
Moose, are you saying that you use bots and you think it's ok for people to use bots? Sorry if I misunderstood, please clarify.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
Among the many, many, ridiculous things he's saying, yes, that seems to be one of them.
My answer to both, if you want to learn Holdem, you better buy a BOT. Because you would be surprise what you learn. And beside that, it will teach you, how to recognize a BOT. This is important because it has been indicated that 7 out of 9, could be BOTs
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:05 PM   #9960
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
My answer to both, if you want to learn Holdem, you better buy a BOT. Because you would be surprise what you learn. And beside that, it will teach you, how to recognize a BOT. This is important because it has been indicated that 7 out of 9, could be BOTs
60% of the time it's a bot, every time
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:06 PM   #9961
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
This goes back to the clubs, thirty years ago
I don't doubt that but it has nothing to do with the discussion. Full Tilt's CURRENT rules prohibit the use of bots, not their rules from 30 years ago. The fact that my check-raises may have been cheating in some podunk town thirty years ago is neither here nor there.
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:06 PM   #9962
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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This is important because it has been indicated that 7 out of 9, could be BOTs
I would take the under on 1 in a 100 being a bot.
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:45 PM   #9963
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Pyromantha View Post
I would take the under on 1 in a 100 being a bot.
Bob Smith told him it was 7 out of 9. Case closed.

Sure is a shame he did so poorly on the test NFuego posted earlier. He hasn't proved it wasn't him, let alone denied it, so I guess it was him.
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:53 PM   #9964
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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And beside that, it will teach you, how to recognize a BOT.
Never mind the crap about 7 out of 9 players being a bot, wtf does this sentence even mean?
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:00 PM   #9965
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

If nobody wants to believe my estimate regarding BOTs playing in the game. Just prowl the Internet, and see "How many BOTs are for sale, How many is freeware" Now nobody keeps making BOTs unless they can sell. Well they are flying off the shelve.

So prepare yourself to play against them. Get to know their concept of poker.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:04 PM   #9966
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Never mind the crap about 7 out of 9 players being a bot, wtf does this sentence even mean?
It means he wants to find more people to talk to.

Been working pretty well for him so far. Still is.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:14 PM   #9967
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
If nobody wants to believe my estimate regarding BOTs playing in the game. Just prowl the Internet, and see "How many BOTs are for sale, How many is freeware" Now nobody keeps making BOTs unless they can sell. Well they are flying off the shelve.
Are you kidding?

Detecting how freely available bots work is a trivially easy task for online poker sites to do. If nothing else, they can just download the software themselves.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:34 PM   #9968
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Re: Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

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Originally Posted by JPFisher55 View Post
I am beginning to wonder if FTP, AP, Merge and maybe most sites, except PS, does not deal a random deck after the flop or even after the deal to protect bad players because it has become more difficult to replace players. I have no real proof.

This has been in palce from the very begining of online poka. The ole time pro call is the ACTION SHUFFEL.

and it is easy to prove. the atempts to prove online is rig shuld analize how offen the underdog wins through the riva card.

IT WILL NOT BE THE RANDOM AMOUONT.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:38 PM   #9969
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
Before I put him on ignore, I found a test he took. I'd like old_moose to prove that he didn't take this test.

If I took this test, it sure news to me. Yes I have a memory of a 72 year old.
Ok I'm curious myself, got to see what you come up with. No I never took this test.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:40 PM   #9970
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Re: Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

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Originally Posted by latanyawilliams View Post
This has been in palce from the very begining of online poka. The ole time pro call is the ACTION SHUFFEL.

and it is easy to prove. the atempts to prove online is rig shuld analize how offen the underdog wins through the riva card.

IT WILL NOT BE THE RANDOM AMOUONT.
Interesting, what amount will it be?
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:41 PM   #9971
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Re: Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

the drawing out will happen mo offen than it shud by normal statistic
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:44 PM   #9972
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Re: Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

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the drawing out will happen mo offen than it shud by normal statistic
I understand that, but by how much? I'm curious...
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:46 PM   #9973
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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If I took this test, it sure news to me. Yes I have a memory of a 72 year old.
Ok I'm curious myself, got to see what you come up with. No I never took this test.
proof?

I declare this as a victory for the protectors because he didn't prove he didn't take the test.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:51 PM   #9974
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Re: Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

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I understand that, but by how much? I'm curious...
i caint posibly no, not a math student

but

if it was increase by 2 or 3 percents, this wuld be a tremendous amount, enuf, fo exampel, to change the way folks paly all ins late in tourneys
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:54 PM   #9975
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Re: Is it possible that Poker Stars is the only fair site?

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i caint posibly no, not a math student

but

if it was increase by 2 or 3 percents, this wuld be a tremendous amount, enuf, fo exampel, to change the way folks paly all ins late in tourneys
Fair enough, but then how can you possibly say whether the underdog is winning more or less than he or she should?
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