My question is simple, have you got the log or the numbers or cards coming from the RNG?? Is the same numbers or cards that is from the RNG arrived at the table???

Whats does the million hands tell you. How many times has somebody has KK and his neighbour has AA. Please tell me this??

Like to hear your answer to these question.

Well folks, I have had a very enjoyable evening. I thank all who set forth to present a point to this debate. One thing that was very appreciated, there was no insults, no foul languages, Just people writing what they believe. Beautiful, how extreme pleasure is achieced by listening to people and their views. On yes, we may not never change this environment. But we together are the ones who must present the feelings of honesty, of cleanliness, of sportmanship. This would be a start in developing a real sport, without outside criticism and the safety of protection from sites. Who are dictating to to customers. You are the customer, and you should have the power to object their demands. If you object to their demands, then it is the beginning of the era of the customers controlling the regulations. Which should be anyway. I hope I have not upset anyone. Lets try.

Does anyone know of a program that can **** up my English like his? Seriously. If I'm ever losing an argument so badly that I have no other option but to employ tilt tactics, this would be THE way. No language translator could be THAT bad. Can it? I get tilted just reading through most of it. It's like trying to get through a maze.. when you know there's no way out. Or like trying to find the word "zipper" in a crossword puzzle with no z's.

I need a vacation.. somewhere far away from old_moose!

If the cards arriving at the table pass all tests for randomness, they are random. There is nothing else worth saying about the subject. The specific algorithm that led to those cards coming to the table is interesting but ultimately irrelevant.

It is impossible to simultaneously pass tests for randomness and manipulate the output of the RNG in a non-random way.

You could have an Intel Hardware RNG, passing a seed to a mersenne-twister pseudoRNG, and a monkey flipping coins to see if the bits get reversed or not, in sequence and create numbers that pass tests for randomness. You cannot have a hardware RNG, a pseudo RNG, a monkey flipping coins, and an evil software program manipulating the cards in sequence and pass tests for randomness.

You could test for this in your own database easily enough if you assume your opponent's never fold AA when you hold KK if you believe it is rigged specifically against you.

He didn't present an opinion. He presented a logical proof, the logic is simple and obviously correct, so if you disagree with the conclusion you must disagree with one of the premises:

Do you disagree that acting in violation of the rules is cheating?
Do you disagree that most online poker room rules prohibit the use of bots?

Edit: having read some of your earlier posts you seem to be thinking that "cheating" necessarily implies "a criminal offense". This is obviously incorrect. If I collect $300 when my tophat whizzes past "Go" instead of $200, I am "cheating" but not committing any crime.

(Do you disagree that acting in violation of the rules is cheating?)
My answer is NO, reason you used the word cheating.

(Do you disagree that most online poker room rules prohibit the use of bots?)

I can't really answer this one, because I only try it on Full Tilt.


Now my turn;

During your poker career, have you ever checked and raised back a hand?

Answer that one please.

Now to get the ball rolling again.

I declare that the "believers or rigtards" are the winners of this debate.

Because the debate is " The great "Poker is rigged" debate " Therefore the busting of Pitbull indicate "Poker was rigged."

Fly at it "protectors or shills" dispute my statement. Show me why it was not rigged.

One way is to put English in a translater to some language with different syntax, then translate the result back to English again. Your text above going to Greek and back, using Google, and the result sounds amazingly like old moose (even the inappropriate caps). Pretty damn funny.

Does anyone know of a program that can **** themselves more English than his? Truthfully. If I do we always Losing an argument so Badly that I have no other choice but to use Tilt tactics, it would be this way. No language interpreter can be that bad. Can it? How to Get Tilted only read through most of it. It as Trying to get through a Mies .. When you know there's no way out. Or as Trying to find the word "Zipper" in a Crossword puzzle with no M's.

LOL! I've done this before and it makes me laugh every damn time!

English to Swahili to English, one of my posts. Sounds like nigerian spammer emails.

I'll humor when one man, and not engage you more, so ask.

The answer is no matter. Wrng is one of the steps in the system card agreements, which randomizes part of the card, as shuffling. If the site wanted to drive the deal, they would almost certainly * not * to do so by changing wrng part of the system, and indeed modern equipment's wrng they could if they wanted. Chip is that spits out only 0s and 1s in a random stream. I am not going in the way that make more sense for the rigging plan, just know that only thing that matters is the output. Result is that the players cards are dealt. And the output is the evidence where the rights agreement would be seen. People as a whole and the return address as the shuffling process "wrng", and that's ok as long as it is understood in the sense of the system. Is true geeks make the difference that we know what works. From the player standpoint, every step from the card wrng in your hand is just a black box. All that matters is what comes out of that is right.

Love the images. I guess if you have no answer you post pictures.

No point posting "answers" when Bob Smith gimmick accounts are given more credence than "protectors".

This will be my final posting to you old_moose, because you're quite obviously become intentionally obtuse. You're not debating in an academically honest manner (which is ironically a form of cheating, so to speak.) If you're not willing to concede obvious and even trivial points then there's no sense in discussing more complex matters with you. You're just too far gone. You're not an honorable debating partner. Good bye.

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/end_user_license_agreement
Section 10.4. There you go - do you now agree that it is cheating on Full Tilt Poker?

Now my turn;

Yes.

Pitbull was not shown to be rigged (though it might have been for all anyone knows, as I understand it they never provided the Hand Histories).

Translating:

You're an idiot.

And a mendacious idiot at that.

I have reviewed this agreement before. And no doubt, I have broken it because I did use a BOT. Full Tilt can cancel my membership and keep the 61 cents in my account. I fully don't agree to some of statements within agreement. Because I am no judge or jury, I will not go into it.

Anyway, the courts of California (Note: I think it was in California, where the last lawsuit was filed) will decide, "How constitutional this agreement is?" Because Full Tilt seized the money of the two players, using the words of their agreement. It certainly will be torn part by the lawyers.
It will be enjoyment to see the end verdict on this case.


During my poker playing clubs days, checking and raising back was not allowed. The reason is quite simple, it was used to deceive a person, or con a person out of the money. In fact, a person who checked a big hand, just to set someone up, in hope someone would try a bluff. These people were called "chiselers."

Are you proud of yourself, because of your check and raise stunt. Did you smile because you have deceived someone. Deceiving or conning is a criminal actions in a public view.

One thing, BOTs don't check and raise. BOTs don't deceive anyone, they play a very up and up game. But they are called cheaters.

You have no idea how hard I laughed at that. Stupid, I know. And it made me feel a lot better about myself, too. I would never argue with people in a language that I didn't comprehend (or at least have the ability to verify that what I was writing is exactly what I meant)!

Something tells me that he lacks that ability in poker as well
He doesn't know how to analyze his play or is just too stubborn to do it. No wonder he thinks poker is rigged.. he's an idiot! LOL

Deception at a poker table?

My God, the horrors.

It's also kinda funny how back in the "ZOMG, how dare you check raise me!?!" days, limp raising KK and AA was super standard.

If you guys want him to go away then just stop talking to him, which includes posts telling him you are no longer talking to him.

He will continue to bring up random unrelated topics and points and ask for feedback or say weird random stuff to generate more emotional reactions.

This is because he is either

1) a troll playing the part of an attention starved confused old guy

2) an attention starved confused old guy


Put him on ignore and never reply to any of his posts in any way again. Otherwise he will never go away.

Personally, I don't really mind one way or the other as the dynamic he is creating is a nice change of pace from the routine microstakes bad beat whiners thinking huge companies care whether they win or lose 5 bucks.

Before I put him on ignore, I found a test he took. I'd like old_moose to prove that he didn't take this test.

Moose, are you saying that you use bots and you think it's ok for people to use bots? Sorry if I misunderstood, please clarify.

Among the many, many, ridiculous things he's saying, yes, that seems to be one of them.