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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:44 PM   #9901
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Old_moose,


You claim to care about integrity in online poker, yet you repeat lies and mistruths. It is people like you - and your fellow travellers on your broken train - that are in fact the enemy of integrity, honesty and credibility in online poker. It are the people who don't fall for your nonsense that are the real advocates for fairness and integrity.
Where are these repeat lies and mistruths. Print them otherwise I will have to conclude you are the one who lies and makes not true statement. I'm waiting for you Failure on your behalf will indicate you are what you call me.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:55 PM   #9902
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fat View Post
This wouldn't make anyone the winner of a debate. I don't think you understand what this thread is. Let me try to explain.

We get people all the time in this forum that start threads along the lines of "I lose with AA every time. Site X is rigged. Hand histories? No, I don't have any, but I know it's rigged". There's all sorts of variations, but they all end up as the same thing - many accusations, no evidence. So, sick of all those threads, we started merging them. That's how this thread started, and threads are continually merged into it.

Then every once in a while, we get a thread started like the Pitbull thread. Or the Absolute Poker thread. Or the Ultimate Bet thread. Threads where people actually gave some real reason to believe that something might be amiss at the particular site. Like actual hand histories. And some of the same people arguing against the rigtards in this thread can be found in those threads, analyzing evidence and helping the investigation. These efforts helped get millions of dollars refunded to UB and AP players that were cheated.

As for the Pitbull thread, I'll admit to not having made the time to read through it all yet either. But m yunderstand was that there were superuser accusations that were never proved, partly because no one could get hand histories out of Pitbull before they shut down. I think the opinion of those I respect around here was that there probably wasn't any superusers involved, but regardless, something shady was going on, and no they're no more.

So no, whatever happened or didn't happen at Pitbull really doesn't have any bearing to what's being debated in this thread, sorry. It's actually a debate that can never be won or lost, because the conspiracy theorists have no evidence, and there's no way to prove a negative like "poker at site x isn't rigged".
I understand you, what you are trying to explain.

My question would be this, if the thread reads, "The great "Poker is rigged" debate " and 2 or 3 sites have been found to be rigged. Such as the ones you mention and of course Pitbull being number 3. Does this not answer the question. Or do we have to bring all poker sites down, before it can be said, "Yes poker is rigged."

Take care and it wonderful talking to you.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:55 PM   #9903
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
Where are these repeat lies and mistruths. Print them otherwise I will have to conclude you are the one who lies and makes not true statement. I'm waiting for you Failure on your behalf will indicate you are what you call me.
In nearly every post you make there are lies. Two posts up you just took Arouets words,twisted them, lied, and accused him of accusing you of committing a criminal offense when he said nothing of the sort.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:03 PM   #9904
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by 5thStreetHog View Post
In nearly every post you make there are lies. Two posts up you just took Arouets words,twisted them, lied, and accused him of accusing you of committing a criminal offense when he said nothing of the sort.
For your information "cheating" is a criminal offense. And you can face the court for it. It can be much the same as fraud, deceiving one of their money. You got to do much better than that. Your reply is weak.

Last edited by old_moose; 10-24-2009 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:14 PM   #9905
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
For your information "cheating" is a criminal offense. And you can face the court for it. It can be much the same as fraud, deceiving one of there money. You got to do much better than that. Your reply is weak.
Cheating is a criminal offense? That is an absurdly incorrect blanket statement. Its a criminal offense to cheat at a board game with your family? Can you "face the court" for that?? Im not sure what court would take that case. There is a difference between cheating and committing an act thats punishable by law. Sadly, im not sure that you cheating with your bot is a criminal offense. It is obviously cheating though, which is exactly what he said to you before you twisted it.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:17 PM   #9906
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

To be honest we have found some common ground, we both seem to believe you should be arrested and charged for cheating with your bot online.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:19 PM   #9907
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
My question would be this, if the thread reads, "The great "Poker is rigged" debate " and 2 or 3 sites have been found to be rigged. Such as the ones you mention and of course Pitbull being number 3. Does this not answer the question. Or do we have to bring all poker sites down, before it can be said, "Yes poker is rigged."
old_moose -

I've stayed out of this thread lately because it's gotten so ridiculous that there isn't much entertainment value or any chance to reason with anyone. But I can try to clear up one issue for you.

AFAIK, no poker site has ever been shown to have a deal that was anything but random and fair, with one exception about 10 years ago that was never exploited (they had a weak RNG implementation and some scientists figured it out, and it was fixed). As far as anyone knows there was always a fair deal at Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet, and Pitbull Poker. Not a rigged deal. What AP and UB had were cheaters, not a manipulated deal, and cheaters were strongly suspected at Pitbull also. In the AP/UB cases the cheaters were insiders, making it doubly bad. And they were caught.

There are also cheaters not associated with any poker site, playing on every single poker site out there. Sometimes they collude in rings, sometimes they play multiple accounts, there are even rumors that a few cheating programmers (not associated with a site) have occasionally even gotten some sucker to install a trojan program on his computer so that they can see his screen. The better sites have staff who are on the lookout for all these kinds of cheaters and they close down accounts every day. And incidentally, by proportion there are likely just as many cheaters in live B&M poker rooms too, perhaps more. Gambling attracts them and it's a fact of life. Good poker rooms are also vigilant and catch them.

So my advice would be to clarify your argument, whether it is about cheating, or about a rigged poker site. And if you think there are insiders cheating, then present some evidence. If you think the deal isn't honest, present some evidence besides an obvious joke post copied from a random bulletin board. Otherwise you are going to continue to get ridiculed.

Mosts of the regular posters in this thread would love to sink their teeth into some real evidence of a rigged deal and help investigate it, just because they want to keep the game honest and weed out any wrongdoing. But in all these thousands of posts, there hasn't been any yet. There has been some evidence that the deal looks fair, and many players also have their own hand records showing an honest deal, but they don't feel the need to post in rigged threads. There are many posters on 2+2 who have played hundreds of thousands of hands of poker, and quite a few in the millions. When someone plays that much poker, they have usually learned enough about the game to spot an unfair deal in their hand history statistics. But you don't see anyone showing evidence of one.


/voice of reason

Last edited by spadebidder; 10-24-2009 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:24 PM   #9908
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
old_moose -

I've stayed out of this thread lately because it's gotten so ridiculous that there isn't much entertainment value or any chance to reason with anyone. But I can try to clear up one issue for you.

No poker site has ever been shown to have a deal that was anything but random and fair, with one exception about 10 years ago that was never exploited (they had a weak RNG implementation and some scientists figured it out, and it was fixed). As far as anyone knows there was always a fair deal at Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet, and Pitbull Poker. Not a rigged deal. What AP and UB had were cheaters, not a manipulated deal, and cheaters were strongly suspected at Pitbull also. In the AP/UB cases the cheaters were insiders, making it doubly bad. And they were caught.

There are also cheaters not associated with any poker site, playing on every single poker site out there. Sometimes they collude in rings, sometimes they play multiple accounts, there are even rumors that a few cheating programmers (not associated with a site) have occasionally even gotten some sucker to install a trojan program on his computer so that they can see his screen. The better sites have staff who are on the lookout for all these kinds of cheaters and they close down accounts every day. And incidentally, by proportion there are likely just as many cheaters in live B&M poker rooms too, perhaps more. Gambling attracts them and it's a fact of life. Good poker rooms are also vigilant and catch them.

So my advice would be to clarify your argument, whether it is about cheating, or about a rigged poker site. And if you think there are insiders cheating, then present some evidence. If you think the deal isn't honest, present some evidence besides an obvious joke post copied from a random bulletin board. Otherwise you are going to continue to get ridiculed.

Mosts of the regular posters in this thread would love to sink their teeth into some real evidence of a rigged deal and help investigate it, just because they want to keep the game honest and weed out any wrongdoing. But in all these thousands of posts, there hasn't been any yet. There has been some evidence that the deal looks fair, and many players also have their own hand records showing an honest deal, but they don't feel the need to post in rigged threads. There are many posters on 2+2 who have played hundreds of thousands of hands of poker, and quite a few in the millions. When someone plays that much poker, they have usually learned enough about the game to spot an unfair deal. But you don't see anyone showing evidence of one.


/voice of reason
Excellent post. I think you're spot on in every detail. This is just objective, fair, reasonable, nominatable quality. I'm just not sure what it's doing in this thread.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:30 PM   #9909
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
Who said anything about criminal? I called you a cheater. Many posters here have tried to give you advice, which you seem intent on ignoring. It seems that age has not made you wise.
The word cheater, refers to the art of cheating. Therefore cheating is next to the word deceived. Deceiving one is a form of con or fraud which constitutes a criminal charge, such as cheating at play or straigth fraud. Sorry I never manufactured the dictionary. You know that, with your background it represents, class, honesty, the world depends on you. What more can I say.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:33 PM   #9910
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

old_moose,

Since you're the one who wants to bring in the dictionary...

Cheating:
definition 5: to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating

And botting is in violation of the rules...
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:37 PM   #9911
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
The word cheater, refers to the art of cheating. Therefore cheating is next to the word deceived. Deceiving one is a form of con or fraud which constitutes a criminal charge, such as cheating at play or straigth fraud. Sorry I never manufactured the dictionary. You know that, with your background it represents, class, honesty, the world depends on you. What more can I say.
I think this post outs OM as a level. Well played.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:37 PM   #9912
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
I understand you, what you are trying to explain.

My question would be this, if the thread reads, "The great "Poker is rigged" debate " and 2 or 3 sites have been found to be rigged. Such as the ones you mention and of course Pitbull being number 3. Does this not answer the question. Or do we have to bring all poker sites down, before it can be said, "Yes poker is rigged."

Take care and it wonderful talking to you.

Of course online poker is rigged. Rigged so you can play it. Through software (interface), hardware (servers), and in most cases, RNG setups. To rig is to set up.. put together. Whether it is being manipulated is the "concern" you have. There have been cases where individuals have cheated (happens in live poker, too, btw). But there hasn't been a case where "crooked" software (or hardware) was involved. Don't you get that?

Just because BMW makes a car that can crash, doesn't make it BMW's fault when one does. Even in UB's case.. UB didn't cheat anyone. Russ Hamilton and others with "superuser" accounts did.

And believe me, I used to suspect online poker was rigged and being manipulated. That was until a friend of mine helped me gather my hand histories and he then clearly showed me where my leaks were (and where my game was being exploited). I was playing too many hands out of position and my bet sizes were inviting too many calls in pots where I shouldn't have been giving such good odds. Poker is about making people pay for their mistakes. If you're losing, it's most likely that you're the one doing the paying (for your mistakes). I doubt any major site would seek you out personally to have you lose. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't make them any more money in the long run. It would take a lot of effort and money to do that. And for what? What if you were to only play heads up against people you knew? Do you still think they'd want you to lose? Just think about it.

Last edited by LVGambler; 10-24-2009 at 11:42 PM. Reason: i wasted my 666th post on old_moose and.. this conspiracy bullsht
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:37 PM   #9913
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

No one is arguing that cheating CANT be a criminal offense. Obviously its not in a lot of situations. Therefore there is a difference between accusing someone of cheating and accusing someone of committing a criminal offense. But you know this, you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. You win Moose, its a wrap for me in this thread. GL.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:40 PM   #9914
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

You guys are all totally nuts talking directly to that moose guy by the way.

Again, he is either a fake conning you or a genuinely weird old guy starved for any kind of attention, even negative attention. That's why there will never be any resolutions to anything (even the simplest of points) since he will just want to find new ways to keep the chat going.

Good luck having a conversation with that. I know I aint joining in on that fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
I think this post outs OM as a level. Well played.
Lots of his posts have had similar "level" clues, but again it could actually be a real confused old guy just making conversation (aka Grampa Simpson) since that is akin to the behavior oif someone like that as well.

For what it is worth I have pretty much assumed it is a fake the whole time, and have kind of been rooting for a reveal :P
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:45 PM   #9915
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
old_moose -
AFAIK, no poker site has ever been shown to have a deal that was anything but random and fair,
Even if this posting is off the battle I was into (The debate etc.).
I certain can give you 150% for your efforts and writing. I'm going to ask you one question.

How does the cards get from the RNG to the table??

Ok waiting on your answer.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:47 PM   #9916
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Lots of his posts have had similar "level" clues, but again it could actually be a real confused old guy just making conversation (aka Grampa Simpson).
I know, as I've acknowledged in my prior posts where I kind of hedged my bets but wanted to give proper answers in the event that he was legit.

I have a confused old guy for a grandfather and even he wouldn't be as nonsensical as the cheating = deception = fraud = criminal act line.

Any way, whichever he is, I'm done with him.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:57 PM   #9917
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
How does the cards get from the RNG to the table??

Ok waiting on your answer.
I'll humor you one time, and won't engage you further, so don't ask.

The answer is it doesn't matter. The RNG is one step in a system that deals the cards, it is the part that randomizes the cards, like shuffling. If a site wanted to manipulate the deal, they would almost certainly *not* do it by modifying the RNG part of the system, and in fact with modern hardware RNG's they couldn't if they wanted to. It is just a chip that spits out 0s and 1s in a random stream. I won't go into the ways that make more sense for rigging a deal, just know that the only thing that matters is the output. The output is the cards that players are dealt. And the output is where evidence of an unfair deal would be detected. People like to refer to the whole shuffling and dealing process as "RNG", and that's ok as long as it is understood to mean the whole system. It only really makes a difference to geeks who know how it works. From the player standpoint, every step from RNG to cards in your hand is just a black box. All that matters is that what comes out of it is fair.

Last edited by spadebidder; 10-25-2009 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:00 AM   #9918
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
old_moose,

Since you're the one who wants to bring in the dictionary...

Cheating:
definition 5: to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating

And botting is in violation of the rules...
Sorry I don't see any reference of BOTs are cheating. It say the following (paste).

for profit to oneself: to cheat at cards. Deceive suggests deliberately misleading or deluding, to produce misunderstanding or to prevent someone from knowing the truth:

Now let debate whether using a BOT is cheating. It does not deceives, it just plays honest poker. So is it a cheater????
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:01 AM   #9919
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
I know, as I've acknowledged in my prior posts where I kind of hedged my bets but wanted to give proper answers in the event that he was legit.

I have a confused old guy for a grandfather and even he wouldn't be as nonsensical as the cheating = deception = fraud = criminal act line.

Any way, whichever he is, I'm done with him.
Really, you don't want to answer the next random question of how do cards get from a RnG to a poker table?

Maybe you or someone else can make him understand that! (edit: noticed after posting this that spade bit one more time!)

After people waste time explaining that maybe the next question will be like

"OK but how does it know which table to put the card?"

"What if there is a mistake in how it picks the table?

"Bob Smith (or whoever the fake Tilt guy is said that they can program it to do things, how do we know those things are not things that are being done?"


I'm just annoyed I never thought of trolling this thread in the way he is, I just created a silly gimmick once, made up crazed rigged stories and was thanked by riggedologists.

That's so minor league in comparison.


Edit number 2: Wow, I stink at guessing the next troll/genuine weird old guy questions. His are so much better at being random - I never would have thought of trying an unrelated transition to bots. I just cannot think like someone living a life based on non sequitur


He wants to debate bots now, so who is game?
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:07 AM   #9920
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
You guys are all totally nuts talking directly to that moose guy by the way.

Again, he is either a fake conning you or a genuinely weird old guy starved for any kind of attention, even negative attention. That's why there will never be any resolutions to anything (even the simplest of points) since he will just want to find new ways to keep the chat going.

Good luck having a conversation with that. I know I aint joining in on that fun.




Lots of his posts have had similar "level" clues, but again it could actually be a real confused old guy just making conversation (aka Grampa Simpson) since that is akin to the behavior oif someone like that as well.

For what it is worth I have pretty much assumed it is a fake the whole time, and have kind of been rooting for a reveal :P
No you are wrong, I don't crave attention. But I do enjoying the battle and fighting for the things I believe in. And I'm on my 7th beer, so lets fly at it. I will sure try to keep up. (S**t he call me a drunk now, I should of shut up)
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:43 AM   #9921
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
I'll humor you one time, and won't engage you further, so don't ask.

The answer is it doesn't matter. The RNG is one step in a system that deals the cards, it is the part that randomizes the cards, like shuffling. If a site wanted to manipulate the deal, they would almost certainly *not* do it by modifying the RNG part of the system, and in fact with modern hardware RNG's they couldn't if they wanted to. It is just a chip that spits out 0s and 1s in a random stream. I won't go into the ways that make more sense for rigging a deal, just know that the only thing that matters is the output. The output is the cards that players are dealt. And the output is where evidence of an unfair deal would be detected. People like to refer to the whole shuffling and dealing process as "RNG", and that's ok as long as it is understood to mean the whole system. It only really makes a difference to geeks who know how it works. From the player standpoint, every step from RNG to cards in your hand is just a black box. All that matters is that what comes out of it is fair.
You did not really answer my question. Lets cut up the system into components. To start with there is a RNG, which I gather from reading, it's job is to produce shuffled cards or I believe instead of cards it produces a number from 1 to 52.

Now once a table is ready, the software ask the RNG for 18 numbers which are translated by the software into cards. Like 1 to 13 is spades, 14 to 26 hearts and so on. Now that the numbers are tranlated into cards. The cards or numbers have to be entered into a data base or array. Once the pocket cards are delivered, and the flop is ready. The software once again ask for 3 numbers for this table. The software once again translate it into cards, and checks the data base or array to see if these cards are already on the table. If so, ask for more. The same for the turn and river.

Now the RNG is solid, but any cheating is done by the software that handles the cards from the RNG to the table.

That is my opinion, comment on it.
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:52 AM   #9922
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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That is my opinion, comment on it.
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:53 AM   #9923
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re: The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
That is my opinion, comment on it.
He already did. Simplified Answer: It doesn't matter because the outputs over millions of hands have shown that the distribution is normal. That's how you test to see if there's something funky with the software.

I for one have nothing more to add.
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:56 AM   #9924
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Originally Posted by old_moose View Post
Sorry I don't see any reference of BOTs are cheating. It say the following (paste).

for profit to oneself: to cheat at cards. Deceive suggests deliberately misleading or deluding, to produce misunderstanding or to prevent someone from knowing the truth:

Now let debate whether using a BOT is cheating. It does not deceives, it just plays honest poker. So is it a cheater????
I think you're being intentionally obtuse. But I'll give a formal proof. (Which seems absurdly overkill for something this simple.)

A) By definition from dictionary.com acting in violation of rules of the game is cheating.

B) By the agreed upon TOS with most every on-line cardroom use of bots is a violation of the rules.

Conclusion) By A & B use of bots at sites in which bot use is a violation of the TOS is a form of cheating.

QED.

There. That's a formal proof. Now unless you're prepared to issue a formal refutation I suggest you accept that. I am done with this derail.
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Old 10-25-2009, 01:19 AM   #9925
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Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
I think you're being intentionally obtuse. But I'll give a formal proof. (Which seems absurdly overkill for something this simple.)

A) By definition from dictionary.com acting in violation of rules of the game is cheating.

B) By the agreed upon TOS with most every on-line cardroom use of bots is a violation of the rules.

Conclusion) By A & B use of bots at sites in which bot use is a violation of the TOS is a form of cheating.

QED.

There. That's a formal proof. Now unless you're prepared to issue a formal refutation I suggest you accept that. I am done with this derail.
As you like, your opinion is yours, My opinion is mine. If ever in the future, there is some solid information on this subject. If I'm wrong then I will state I was wrong, if I'm right, you must step up to the plate and state you are wrong.
Is it a deal?
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