By your command. Let's say that the RNG wasn't rigged at precise intervals (between software updates, or monthly). Let's say it was rigged at random times and only employee's of the site knew it was rigged at those times and how it was rigged. Again, overall, the data looks normal because it evens out. You wouldn't be able to detect any noticeable pattern.

Before I continue, please know that I don't honestly believe this happens, but I'm just throwing out theory's which are plausible and undetectable.

It could be rigged in a number of various ways. Let's say for one MTT it's rigged that you are going to win a hand in the first orbit UTG+3. In the second orbit you don't win. In the third orbit you win UTG+1 and so forth - regardless of the hands you are personally dealt. Only you know the formula for how the cards will be dealt. Poker site employee plays the MTT with this knowledge and profits.

This is actually entertaining intellectually to come up with ways of undetected RNG riggedness.

It's my position that it could be both. Would it be likely that the site would turn it's head away from chip dumping if it were offered an incentive to do so? Sure. Why not? Look at what ESPN does. They accept UB advertising money even though ESPN knows UB cheated it's players. If somebody offered Mr. pokersite owner a cut of the money to be laundered if they were to look the other direction, then sure, it's plausible they would take it. Who would blame them?

You can make chip dumping look completely legit though, so they wouldn't even need to inform the site.

Chip dumping needs to be solved in order to start the process for legalization in the United States. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible.

Actually, that would show up pretty easily. In order to fate particular positions to win particular hands, those particular deals have to be non-random. So the card distributions are going to be off.

And of course, even easier than that to detect would be if someone tried to exploit it, even by intentionally throwing some hands, they would still have results well above their EV.

And how about the part where the same chair at each table wins on these rounds? Seems pretty easy to detect that, too.

Sorry, that's a no-go.

So every single employee that ever knows about this "rigging" would forever need to keep their mouth shut. Not that your theory would actually hide anything or make any difference in the profit margins for a site. At this point if you want to continue debating I'd HIGHLY suggest you read the thread. You will learn a lot if you actually pay attention.

But ESPN is regulated in the USA....................*head asplode*

The card distributions would be off? How? It could seem like a perfectly normal deal and result. UTG +5 gets kings, and UTG +1 gets Aces. Kings know they are going to win and the deal and distribution looks completely normal. You're also not following what I'm saying. It wouldn't be the same chair at each table with a winning hand. It would be random, according to a random formula which is known to a select few people. Everything would still be random and appear as normal. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

Forever keep their mouth shut? Maybe. UB hasn't released the names of the people who cheated. Will they keep them forever? Maybe. Who knows. There are many rich people with dirty secrets that will be forever kept. Yes, it's possible.

Let's talk profit margins. Let's say 3 players that work for the site final table the Sunday million (or whatever the big tourney is for any site). That's a pretty big profit increase as opposed to just making rake from the tournament.

In the end to avoid detection this would all have to fall within appropriate variance. So how would this benefit the site and why would they do it?

Hello all;

BEWARE; I'm mad, real mad, real real mad. The following is my opinion only, all are welcome to comment or correct. But there will be a good chance, you will never change my thinking on the following; In brief first;

To begin with, check the below thread, I'm certain many would recognize the thread, because I see some of the same names at this thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...7-grand-41524/

It appears a lawsuit as been filed, plus included within the lawsuit. Full Tilt is accused with using BOTs to increase the luck factor on the poker site, in order to make more money. The below link will take you to the site.

http://www.bankrollmob.com/poker-new...ull-tilt-poker

Below is a layout of the lawsuit.

http://pokerati.com/2009/10/04/re-ye..****ase-summary/

What makes me real, real, mad as follows;

I don't believe using a BOTs is cheating. It's just software, if you sat at your computer and while playing. Used your calculator to assist and calculate the odds, is this cheating??? If it was a software calculator on your computer is this cheating??? Full Tilt uses software, why can't I ???

One answer could be is, "Full Tilt software is for service, while a BOT is used beat other players." A very quick similarity, what if your bank said, "We seized your account, reason you use a spreadsheet to check your online account."

Full Tilt doesn't tell anybody, they prowl your computer looking for BOTs. What about the personal info they steal and sell? Is that why I uses too get all those phone calls by people looking to sell you some kind of scam? I said uses too, not anymore, I got rid of them. When I got a call, I would wait seconds to listen to the speel, how I'm missing the opportunity of getting rich in the next 10 days. Then I would say, "What's your credit card number." The reply would be, "Hmm, what you want my credit card number for." My answer, "It cost money to talk to me." Funny, I soon quit getting them calls.

I believe it is discriminatory, what Full Tilt is doing. I stated I used a BOT, a few posting ago. I used it on Full Tilt also. I paid good money for it, and the real joke is, I never made enough to cover the license. The only value I got from it was I would watch it play, I got more than the buy price in value from by learning some of the tricks and moves it made. Oh yes it even bluffed a few hands and it did a good job. Sometimes I would grab the control away from it, because it was going to fold a hand I figure should be played. Yes and I sure learned how to buy more chips fast.

What if you where at my place, and I said, "Hey play a few hands for me, I got go and get rid of the beer." Would this be cheating? If this happen, they may seize my account.

Full Tilt has a profile on your skills and your method of play. If you use a BOT or a buddy, the style of playing changes. This could be detectable by the software used by Full Tilt, therefore foiling up their cheating plans.

What makes me real mad;

The poor lady has to take them to court to get her money. It appears, they can do what they like, because you clicked on the "I agree" button. If you won a large tournament, you would want to get the money home as fast as you can. Any reason they could find, they could lockup your winning. Is this fair? What about all the legal fee. One person in the comments said, which I figured was a good comment and is somewhat of this nature, "Does this mean (Seizing of the account) Full Tilt is going to refund all players who lost money, because of the BOT?" Another good question.

What makes me mad;

Full Tilt, these outlaws feel they can just take advantage of everyone.

Now for revenge;

Paste below is an email sent to support@fulltiltpoker.com all text is in place but I have *** my name etc. During the period I was playing for money on Full Tilt. I emailed support several times, questioning their software on the possibility of it being rig. They answered and went into detail why it was not, this was part of this email but because of the length I cut it short.

I sent them a copy from my arsenal of Bob Smith, looking for a comment on it.

__________________________________________________ _______________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "***** ******" <****@****.***>
To: "Full Tilt Poker - Support" <support@fulltiltpoker.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: Full Tilt Poker - Your Email (KMM13887775I15977L0KM)


> How honest is your software??????
>
> Found at
> http://rounding.wordpress.com/2008/0.../#comment-1226
> pasted to
> http://www.pokerlistings.com/possibl...lt-poker-21428
> these sites have considerable information about being scammed at full
> tilt.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> on December 29, 2008 at 5:31 pm Bob Smith
>
> Their are many folk out there arguing about if online poker is rigged or
> not.I wold like to help put this to rest by stating that it is rigged in
> many different ways. i helped write some of the software for tiltware
> LLC.while working on the fulltilt site some of the other programmers and i
> were asked to install programming into the software that would recognize
> certain players and provide them with unbeatable hands. we were also asked
> to develope software that would provide what they called the"maximum
> oppurtunity to bet" which meant that the deals are rigged to deal out alot
> of good starting hands to alot of players so that the most betting
> possible would take place on every deal. The deal would then provide a
> monster flop in which atleast two players would be all in before the
> river.(ever wonder why nobody ever misses the flop online.because then no
> one would bet and that is not what fulltilt wants) This keeps the tourneys
> fast paced and exciting which players love. Fulltilt loves this too, the
> faster you lose the faster they can make more money off you by having
> enter another tourney.
> There is also another way fulltilt cheats you out of cash with their own
> personal players. These players are called house players and are fulltime
> employees of the Fulltilt compnay. If you check some names and their
> online wins vs. loss records you will often find them with records that
> are simply unreal. I have seen some of these folks who win over 50
> straight sessions without a loss.how can this be possible unless they are
> working on the inside. They come and go and change their names often but
> they play in the site with the full adavantage of being able to see all
> the cards in play and in the deck.
> Another programming trick we wrote into the software at fulltilt is the
> levels trick.this trick takes place when a tournament has been running
> after the first break. The computer recognizes the different size of each
> players chip stack and begins to deal out hands in which a small stack
> will shove all in and a large stack will have a better hand to call with.
> Have you ever wondered why you get pocekt QQs with 1500 chips and the guy
> next to you gets pockets KKs and he has 10,000 chips? The answer is simple
> the site is programmed to get you to play as much as possible. So we
> programmed the site to eliminate the small stack as quickly as possible so
> that they can go enter another tourney asap. The site is even prgrammed to
> adjust the flop for big stacks so that even if the big stack calls your
> hand with nothing he will end up beating your good made hand by the river.
> Often times the site will deal you back to back hands with the same cards
> but maybe different colors or suits..this "glitch" is a sign that the
> computer is adjusting the shuffle to start elimnting small stacks and
> allow the tourney to finish quicker.
> The sooner a tournament is done the faster fulltilt can have you back at
> another table spending more money.it is to this sites best interested to
> eliminate you from tables as fast as possbile. There is no one to regulate
> how the company manipulates the software to thier own advantage. There is
> no one to monitor how the company pays out its players and employees.
> Simply put, giving some offshore account your hard earned cash is simply
> insane. Thinking that these people arent cheating you out of your money is
> crazy, the site has many layers of hidden programming all set up to take
> full adavantage of all types of players from novice to expert.
> the main reason i wrote this blog is to expose the fraud that takes place
> at online gaming site known as Fulltilt poker i was fired three months ago
> from the company that helped write the software..yes i am bitter and mad
> but i do fell everyone so know how bad fulltilt is and that is a site
> built by THIEVES!!
>
> Waiting to hear your lies. Criminals like you will be punish.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________

I never received a reply and it is now the Oct/22/2009

Conclusion;

1) There must be a Bob Smith, he must of worked for Tiltware, otherwise I'm certain they would of replied and defended Full Tilt. They did reply to all other previous question on their software.
2)Or they just don't care.

I'm feeling better but this upsets me somewhat;

I posted this Bob Smith posting on 10-19-2009 at 2:11 PM
I also in other postings, suggested that people go and sign the following petition regarding and Full Tilt and cheating. The site is at http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/FullTilt

On the same day, found a posting with the bad news. There has been a Bob Smith signed the petition, and added comments in complete reverse as the posting I posted. This posting was at 10/19/2009 3:04 PM

I went to the site and found, yes there was Bob Smith with comments in complete reverse. The time of the posting was on 10/19/2000 3:04 PM

There was some suspicious indicators.
1) You can use any name on the petition.
2) In Bob Smith posting lowercase letters are used, unless start of a sentence, and fulltilt was used.
3) While in the comments, Uppercase letters are used and Full Tilt is used.

This appears to be a conspiracy from this thread to crunch any bad or damaging material. Which tells me, Yes there are people who get paid to protect the online poker sites.

These employees would forever work for the company? And you said it is impossible to prosecute them right? So why would they bother? Your theory is swiss cheese man.

Also, look up AJ Green and Russ Hamilton. Not defending UB/AP, but quit throwing out claims that are clearly false.

Implications?

MERGE GAMING AND PAYMENT PARTNER - Merge Gaming Official Statement
Dublin, Ireland, 23rd October 2009


It has been brought to my attention, via comments in a public forum, that there is some confusion regarding a relationship we have with a payments provider. To be clear, it was Merge Gaming, who served notice on our agreement with Pic Club, and the contract ceased to be in affect on October 18, 2009 at 11:59:59 PM (EST). The reasoning behind this is a matter of private record. Merge Gaming attempted to resolve the issue brought on by Pic Club, one of its principals, and one of its members, and without resolution, felt it was in the best interest of our customers to end this relationship immediately.


It is regrettable that I have to respond to the statements of the past week but our hand has been forced. We've cancelled our agreement to protect our players, our network partners and our reputation going forward.

Anthony Taylor, CEO, Merge Gaming

I take back what I said earlier, Aaron's way is kind of fun to read against the right riggedologists as well.


In reference to that guy's cash cow conspiracy. I would have milked it in a much different way.

Props for upping the fun factor though.

Old Moose: the reason using bots is cheating is because you are playing a game. And on most sites using bots is against the rules of the game.

If you were in the national baseball league would you use a metal bat?

Poker is a game, if you don't like the rules, don't play, or try and find a site that allows bots.

From the rest of your post, I assume that you still haven't read the rest of the thread. That's your choice, you seem comfortable with your fears and do not seem interested in actually getting to the bottom of anything. I wish you the best of luck.

First I'm still following your instruction. I'm at #25 and reading a little each night. Next, sure I tried a BOT, but it sit now on my computer rotten. I'm to lazy to delete it, but why would I use BOT playing the play games?

Question; what if I took the BOT, installed it on my laptop. Now I can should beable to tap into my main computer and then by running the BOT, let it instruct me how to play each hand. Would this be cheating??
Give us an answer, like to hear what your say. Best

Glad to see you're still reading the thread: might want to refrain from comments along the lines of "you'll never change my mind" makes you seem dogmatic.

If I understand your last paragraph, then as I understand it, that would be cheating. At least according to the terms and conditions of most sites. There may be some sites that allow it.

Just to quote again, so as to understand one another. I have my main computer, with a game going from Full Tilt. Along side of me, is my laptop, also with the game on its monitor. And the BOT running also. Now the BOT does not make any move, only text is flashed with the instruction, fold call raise on so.

So you believe this will be classified as cheating??

What about another concept. Instead of the laptop using OCR, have the laptop read the log from handhistory. It has all the information available for the BOT to do it job. Assuming it comes in fast enough.

Nice chatting with you

From the terms and conditions of Full Tilt:


So yes, it is cheating. It's pretty cut and dried actually.

Well you pointed out where if you have clicked the "I Agree" button. That they have the rights, to prowl your computer, check out other programs running on your computer.

But it does not mention the punishment, if caught. No doubt, they had some first class law firm to write the agreement.

What are the chances, of these people winning their lawsuit. You are an educated person, and I would imagine you have hear or read, how agreements some times get step on, because some part does not agree with everybody's rights. This court case going to be real interesting. All names in the lawsuit will have to take the stand and give evidences. Somebody will perjury themselves, this will open all doors.

I wish I could push the clock ahead to see the results sooner.

Last question, you have point out the reason for the lawsuit. What about yourself, how does your heart feel about the lawsuit. Are your thoughts, with Full Tilt or do you feel Full Tilt over did themselves?

If you cheat and get caught they take your money.


Unrelated question, what is a telemarketers worst nightmare when calling a number?


Gets worse, in a week or so we have to turn our clocks back an hour as daylight savings time ends.


Hope this helped some.

So I guess you'll be retracting this statement now:

Don't know if this is news or old stuff, I think it shows, there crooked thing happens in online poker

Pitbull Poker Closure: Players Demand Legislation, Seek Legal Action;

http://www.pokernewsdaily.com/pitbul...l-action-5500/

It's a long link, you might have to do a little repair work for it will work.

It seem, there was a little cheating going on. If any shills worked for this Pitbull poker. Sorry to hear it, but it looks like you are out of a job.

I heard that some twoplustwo posters broke the pitbull story but then all the shills shouted them down.

That's what happened right?

Oh...wait.

No, when there is actually something wrong, 2p2 members play a key role in detecting it and uncovering it.

Sarcasm meter needs tweaking IMO.

The secret's in the 'Oh, wait'.

It tends to reverse what has been written before.

It's not his fault; he's Australian after all.